Talk:French Directory

Old talk page post

Where does this text come from? It does not seem to be on the indicated website http://1911encyclopedia.org

Try #11 and then #179 here [1]. It is from the 1911 Britannica. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.30.157 (talk • contribs) 13 September 2006.

The directoire does not preceed the empire; it preceeds the consulate.

Recent move

I have now (basically) fixed a cut-and-paste move and restored the history of this article. As usual, there are a few glitches: a few "redirect" states show up as part of the history of the article.

But, on top of that, I think the move was ill-advised. This is particularly so because French Directory was part of an article series about the French Revolutionary era, and was not just about the institution itself but about a period in French history that is usually referred to (after that institution) as the Directory or (in French) Directoire.

I would like to put the French Directory material back at French Directory. We can have a separate page Italian Directories, and can add disambiguations as needed.

If we decide to leave things as they now are, there are a bunch of double-redirects that will need to be fixed. But, please, no one start on that until we actually have consensus. I will certainly not do anything precipitous in the next 48 hours, and hope that others will not, either. -- Jmabel | Talk 03:06, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the directoire is interesting more as an era (thus specific to France) than as a political system (whether or not there were other directories). Thus I think it should stay at French Directory. David.Monniaux 08:20, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Since no one is speaking up to the contrary, I will do this. -- Jmabel | Talk 20:32, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Date Discrepancy

"The Thermidorian Convention continued until October 26, 1795 (4 Brumaire Year IV), when the National Convention was succeeded by the French Directory." - (Under subtitle: End of Reaction) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermidorian_Reaction "Executive Directory (in French Directoire exécutif), commonly known as the Directory (or Directoire) held executive power in France from November 2, 1795 until November 10, 1799" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Directory

As one can see there are two different dates for the beginning of the Directory. Which one is the correct date? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.25.116.145 (talk • contribs) 7 April 2006

I'm not certain, but I believe there was a gap. There had been an even larger (and very chaotic) gap between the Legislative Assembly and the Convention. - Jmabel | Talk 01:17, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

A pretty reasonable gap, I'd say. The Convention voted the new constitution in on 4 Brumaire, and then disbanded. A list of the 376 deputies re-elected earlier in the month was constructed on 6 Brumaire. That leaves the Directory opening for business on 11 Brumaire (2nd Nov) I don't know what importance the traditional days of the week had under the new calendar, but 10 Brumaire was a Sunday, so that left basically five or six days to get almost 500 men organised in a different building, with a different organisation, &c. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 203.173.30.157 (talk • contribs) 13 September 2006.

Neutrality

This article contains many statements of questionable neutrality. Just a sample:

"In all these countries, they organised such an effective pillage that the French became universally hated.

As the armies were far below the strength required by the policy of unbounded conquest and rapine, the first permanent law of conscription was passed in the summer of 1798. The attempt to enforce it caused a revolt of the peasants in the Belgian departments. The priests were held responsible and some eight thousand were condemned to deportation en masse, although the much greater part escaped by the goodwill of the people. Few soldiers were obtained by the conscription, for the government was as weak as it was tyrannical."

"The French lacked any real political freedom, yet also lacked the ease or security which enlightened despotism can bestow. The Terrorists lifted their heads in the Council of Five Hundred. A Law of Hostages, which was really a new Law of Suspects, and a progressive income tax showed the temper of the majority. The Jacobin Club re-opened and became once more the focus of disorder."

At the very least, the article should be edited for neutrality. It would be good to include more sources and replace the many judgments of the Directory here with researched facts. -Thucydides411 (talk) 19:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

No actual discussion of this in more than a year so removing tag; also moved thread into proper chrono order. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:02, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Reading the actual text, see the basis for the tagging though. Nonetheless, I think the POV is more or less that of the actual historical truth. Added tone which I guess is the actual issue. 72.228.177.92 (talk) 23:16, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

<span lang="fr">La Révellière Lépeaux</span>

What's the use of all those lang="fr" span tag attributes throughout the code ? What do they accomplish ? --Jerome Potts (talk) 06:18, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Title of this article

My suggested move of the title of this article to Directoire (the same title as the French WP article) has been rejected [2]. 'French Directory' is comical - certainly not a well-known anglicization. No-one would be able to guess what it means. Is there another possibility? This article should be searchable/accessible to the reader. --Kleinzach 12:52, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

No response after two years? I would like to re-propose a change to Directoire. --Kleinzach 08:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Support – Rushing to your side belatedly :) I fully agree: I always thought the redirect Directory (France) was a more wikified title than "French Directory", but Directoire would indeed be the most appropriate. SteveStrummer (talk) 16:52, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. I've made the request (below). Kleinzach 08:28, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I also hope the change is made soon, to plain 'Directoire'. I just made a google search with 'Directoire' and was quite startled to end up with 'French Directory'. I don't think I had ever seen that one before.--Lubiesque (talk) 11:59, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: 'Not moved. Nathan Johnson (talk) 15:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)

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French Directory → Directoire – Historical term in French for precision. Present English name is ambiguous, suggesting irrelevant telephone directories, call girl rings, and whatever. Kleinzach 08:27, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose I think WP:USEENGLISH takes priority in this sort of context. The term "Directoire" is not completely unambiguous in French, although this is the primary meaning on the French Wikipedia, it could also apply to e.g. the executive committee of the Central European Bank. I don't have enough experience of call girl rings to say what they are widely called in English or French. PatGallacher (talk) 09:30, 15 May 2013 (UTC)
• Support – In common usage, English references to the Directory tend to be unsuitably plump phrases. In historical scholarship, the terms used are simply the Directory or the Directoire. Since "Directory" is too well-used on WP and requires the addition of "French" or "(France)", I think the original "Directoire" is most preferable. Any other Directoire can be easily disambiguated, with this article as the primary meaning. SteveStrummer (talk) 17:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I see someone has been bold and made a change to the lede in favor of "Directorate". Questions of procedure aside, I think "Directorate" is no more helpful than "Directory" as they both have disambiguation pages of considerable length, and would each require a clunky "French"/"France" modifier. SteveStrummer (talk) 17:26, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

• Comment - I don't have an opinion on the move proposal, but this article has a giant banner This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (December 2011) on it, and therefore adding book refs should be a priority (though I've changed the Columbia Law School book for another text). Given that English sources have 3 names well represented Directoire, Directory, Directorate, then all three need mentioning in lead. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:26, 16 May 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose Britannica and Columbia both give "Directory". Kauffner (talk) 11:13, 16 May 2013 (UTC)

Britannia occasionally fails to move from its 1911 titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:44, 17 May 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose. European History texts & books I've read all used "Directory." Arguably this could be "Directory (French Revolution)" but parenthetical disambiguators are lame, so the current title is fine. SnowFire (talk) 17:23, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
• Comment. A directory sounds like a telephone directory. The correct word for a group of people who are directors in English is directorate, so a better name might be French Directorate. Apteva (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, this may be the way to go if Directoire is rejected. I note the Directorate page which implies support. --Kleinzach 00:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Carnot

I notice the addition that Carnot was the only director with "a reputation for leadership or political sagacity." I think this is a bit misleading because it's not like he dominated the group. The cheerful dwarf (talk) 05:40, 5 May 2014 (UTC)

Right, Carnot was moving right and at the end very close to royalists and had so much "sagacity" that did not know what was coming on 18 Fructidor and had to flee. Another "nice" line "Rewbell, Barras and La Révellière Lépeaux were Jacobin radicals; Carnot and Le Tourneur were moderates". Rewbell, Barras were Jacobin radicals??!! And another - "Gottschalk says that except for Lazare Carnot, none of the members of the Directory was particularly able"??Nivose (talk) 02:17, 12 October 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an odd claim, I've removed it from the lede. —Nizolan ^(talk) 12:42, 10 February 2015 (UTC)

President of the Directory

Presidentship was on a rotation basis for three months, by each of the directors. Please see France: Presidents of the Executive Directory: 1795-1799. Paul Barras just happened to be the only director to serve during the full term of the directorate. --Prabhachatterji (talk) 12:09, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

The pianist with Napoleon in Egypt

Dear Blue Indigo: The pianist with Napoleon in Egyt was Henri Jean Rigel. He performed an opera in Cairo in 1801, and later became the official pianist of Napoleon I, then of Louis XVIII. He had Cesar Franck as one of his pulls. Cordiallly, SiefkinDR (talk) 18:45, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Dear SiefkinDR, Thank you! I just fell upon the above, almost one month after you posted it. Cordialement, --Blue Indigo (talk) 07:59, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

I love little details like this- who would ever think that Napoleon had his own pianist? By the way, take a look sometime at my current obsession; the articles on Art Deco and Le Corbusier. SiefkinDR (talk) 16:46, 8 October 2016 (UTC)

Bonjour SiefkinDR,

The piano was an Érard. As for other interesting "little details" on Napoléon Bonaparte, he loved the violet, a shy flower as distant as can be from the imperial eagle.

Have been loosely following development of the Art Deco article, not Le Corbusier, and have no time to participate in their redaction, the French Directory being a handful.

As for its title - upon seeing it the first time, "French Directory" brought to my mind a telephone book:) - I would have voted for the word "Directoire" in French, as it is the name of a specific era of the history of France, like Ancien Régime, for instance.

There are other articles in en.wiki with titles left in French, although they have a perfect English translation, such as Ménage à trois and Entente cordiale, the latter being a must for bonne entente dans le ménage.

Cordialement! --Blue Indigo (talk) 11:13, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

Bonjour, Blue Indigo. You're right, Directoire would make more sense, but I suppose for English-speaking students they're more inclined to look for Directory. "Empire" is a nicer term, since it doesn't require any translation. I can see why Napoleo preferred it. Besides the costume of Emperor is pretty grand, while the Directors just looked silly with those funny hats. Cordially, SiefkinDR (talk) 15:31, 9 October 2016 (UTC)

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Requested move 9 February 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 04:40, 17 February 2020 (UTC)

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French Directory → Directoire – WP:COMMONNAME.

Text	Results
"the Directoire" -Wikipedia	98,400
"the French Directory" -Wikipedia	87,500

Besides there are English dictionary entries with pronunciations which could be used in the lead:

The Directoire (/ˌdirɛkˈtwɑːr/; French: le Directoire [lə diʁɛktwaʁ]), also referred to as the French Directory or the French Directorate, was...

References

92.184.105.171 (talk) 21:34, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

• The common name in English is "The Directory", and it appears from a glance that all the English sources cited in this article use that form. The Google Search results numbers are within margin of error, the number I get for the same query is 3 times higher than yours. – Thjarkur (talk) 23:56, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. "French" a disambiguator here, not part of the common name. Here is an ngram. A Dictionary of French History (2015) gives "Directory, French." Colin Gerhard (talk) 00:42, 10 February 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose per Thjarkur. History textbooks refer to it as The Directory, but additional disambiguation is needed. Just as we have "American Civil War" rather than "The Civil War", French Directory is the best and clearest title. SnowFire (talk) 18:22, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.