Talk:Cheshire Cat

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References

Nice Article

This article is really useful and informative.

Batreeq ^{(Talk) (Contribs)} 02:31, 13 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Batreeq!

Hkm24 (talk) 12:44, 16 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Explanation of the phrase

The political explanation of the phrase "grin like a Cheshire cat", previously stated to be "finally explained" until I changed it to a more modest statement, seems fanciful to me. I don't believe it. Either evidence is needed, or it should be deleted. Anyhow, the mini-history of Cheshire and "caitiff" is too long for the need. Zaslav (talk) 20:46, 6 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Zaslav: This looks like original research to me. I can't quickly find when it was added; it seems to have been there since at least 2019. It should probably be deleted unless someone can find a reputable source that states that Cheshire cats grin because of the county's privileged political status. Espresso Addict (talk) 01:42, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Espresso Addict: Agreed. I moved it to here so with evidence it can be restored—but it looks cheesy. (Thanks for the tip about cats following politics.)

The expression has been explained as an amalgam of the widely used phrase "grinning like a cat that got the [spilt] cream" (which could apply to any part of the country, although Cheshire was the pre-eminent milk, cheese, and cream-producing county for several centuries) with Cheshire's unique privileged political status. On their own, either of these would have been something to grin about. The county was described as a palatinate from the 1290s and was promoted to be a principality in 1397, following the support its men gave King Richard II. No other English county has been honoured in this way or was accorded such unusually wide privileges. These included its own "borderland" laws and taxes, and a considerable measure of independence from national government, which persisted into the sixteenth century. These privileges attracted many who "arrived as fugitives from justice and this seems to have become the principal motivation [for escaping to Cheshire from the Kings laws] as the Middle Ages wore on".^[1] Once safely across the border into palatine Cheshire's jurisdiction, these transgressors could grin cheekily at any pursuing King's Sheriffs, and "disappear" into the countryside. Certainly, dictionaries show the word "caitiff" derived from Old French or Anglo-Norman in terms such as "cowardly or base villain" or "mean despicable fellow", and with its diminutive "cat" meaning "a 'sharp' fellow",^[2]^[3] as in the beat generation idiom.

Zaslav (talk)

Thanks for this, Zaslav. I've finally found when some of this was added [1]. It looks like the basic concept might have come from the Young article in Cheshire History (which exists, but not online) -- I wonder if anyone happens to have a copy? Will ask on the Cheshire project talk page but it's not very active at the moment, sadly. Espresso Addict (talk) 05:43, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I do have a copy of the relevant Cheshire History. In the section moved to this page, the part from "The county was described..." to "...a 'sharp' fellow'" is a word for word copy of part of Young's article. But it forms no part of his conclusion, which says in the last paragraph "Dairy products, then, provided a satisfying origin for the maxim of the Cheshire Cat's cheekily grinning with gratification". This refers back to an earlier paragraph where, following a discussion on dairy produce and cats' enjoyment of it, states "This, then, was the derivation of the maxim." The article, being published in Cheshire History would have been peer reviewed, but I do not know if we can take this as a final and complete explanation. --Peter I. Vardy (talk) 14:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Just for the sake of levity: Edward Pusey, as the Cheshire cat, would have refused milk and cream and preferred John Kibble.---Ehrenkater (talk) 19:18, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ White, Graeme J (2015). The Magna Carta of Cheshire. London. p. 39.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
^ Chambers (1972). Twentieth Century Dictionary. London.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)
^ Collins (2003). English Dictionary. London.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

Other theories...

In addition to those mentioned in the In science section of this article, for the Cheshire Cat and its disappearing act - in particular its complete fading away, leaving only its smile (which always fascinated me in childhood).

That is: was Caroll's Cheshire Cat a satirical reference to the historical controversy around Bishop Berkeley's work The Analyst? With particular regard to Berkeley's words there "May we not call them the ghosts of departed entities?" This is mentioned by myself and one other in the Talk section for Wikipedia article on The Analyst. CatNip48 (talk) 14:15, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] White, Graeme J (2015). The Magna Carta of Cheshire. London. p. 39.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

[2] Chambers (1972). Twentieth Century Dictionary. London.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

[3] Collins (2003). English Dictionary. London.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: location missing publisher (link)

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