Talk:Howard families

Genetics of Lazarus Long

In this current version, it states, "according to Time Enough for Love, he [Lazarus Long] simply possessed a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair (which of course he passed on to his own descendants, thereby contributing to the success of the experiment)." This is patently bogus. There is no such reference in Time Enough for Love or any other work featuring Lazarus Long. If there is, I would like the exact reference. I read every single line of every work featuring the character of Lazarus Long and throughout all the reading I was acutely sensitive to anything mentioning how Lazarus acquired his special genes. Believe me, I would have seen it. I did not see it, and so I'm removing it from the page for being bogus. As a side note, most of the blurbs on the back of the book Time Enough for Love that I have seen contain the line: he was "so in love with Time that he became his own ancestor." But this never happens in any of the published works. Perhaps Heinlein meant to write another book detailing how Lazarus went back in time to the year 1852 and begat who became his grandfather, Ira. I believe a lot of the similarities between Ira and Lazarus could be explained not just by Ira being Lazarus Long's grandfather, but also his son. But admittedly this is speculative. At any rate, if the scenario I have outlined is really the case, then it makes sense why Lazarus Long, merely a third generation product of the Howard Families' breeding experiment, fails to die like everyone else of his time period. He went back in time and gave himself the longevity genes that were necessary for staying alive long enough to be able to go back in time and give himself the longevity genes. He had/has to do it, because he already did/will do it. If this is not the case, does anyone have any evidence or information on why this seemingly false piece of information is on the back of every version of Time Enough for Love?? Please send me a message if you do. --Uroshnor 11:25, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

"[Lazarus Long] simply possessed a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair"

Actually, this does ring a bell. I don't have a copy handy, but check the introduction, where Justin Foot is describing Long's background.

—wwoods 16:44, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The exact quote on the back of the book is: "The capstone and crowning achievement of Heinlein's famous Future History, Time Enough For Love follows Lazarus Long through a vast and magnificent timescape of centuries and worlds. Heinlein's longest and most ambitious work, it is the story of a man so in love with Life that he refused to stop living it; and so in love with Time that he became his own ancestor." Becoming his own ancestor would be a better explanation of Long's longevity, but the problem is that it never happened (to my knowledge), as I've said. Anyway, did anyone find the reference to the twelfth chromosome pair? If it exists, I have still been unable to do so. --Uroshnor 03:05, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I checked the introduction to Time Enough For Love, as you recommended. The only relevant reference in the entire introduction is the following: "But how did the Senior, himself only a third-generation member of Ira Howard's breeding experiment, manage to live and stay young his first three hundred years without artificial rejuvenation? A mutation, of course--which simply says that we don't know." Note that there is absolutely not the slightest mention of any "twelfth chromosome pair," and that Heinlein did not say that Long's longevity is the result of a mutation. He suggests that Justin Foote doesn't know why Lazarus lived so long, so Foote infers a mutation out of ignorance, but that no one knows in any case (perhaps because no one knows yet, because Lazarus has not yet gone back in time to become his own ancestor). Besides, anyone who knows anything about Heinlein knows that he does not rely upon deus ex machina explanations in his stories, especially about crucial plot points. He repudiated such cheap anti-rationality explanations, just as he rejected any religious mumbo jumbo. Does anyone else have a suggestion on where to look for the alleged reference to Long's supposed "twelfth chromosome pair," so that I can look where you suggest, and then also NOT find it there? --Uroshnor 04:38, 1 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I know some will think this is all a pointless rant on an obscure and unimportant piece of information, but Lazarus Long is one of the most fascinating characters I’ve ever read about and I have wanted to make sure that the information provided here is correct concerning him. I personally believe that this point is central to Heinlein's future history series. How does Heinlein explain why Lazarus lives so long?

To that end, I’ve managed to track down the reference to the "twelfth chromosome pair." Yes, it does exist. But it is easy to see why I didn’t remember reading it. You see, the passage does not say the slightest thing about a mutation in the genes of Lazarus Long. It is taken from page 230 of Time Enough For Love in the 1974 Berkley paperback version (at the end of 'Variations On A Theme IX: Conversation Before Dawn'). Here it is (Minerva asks the question):

"'Mutant Howards, Lazarus?' The old man [Lazarus] shrugged. 'Isn’t that a question-begging term, dear? If you use a long enough time scale, every one of the thousands of genes a flesh-and-blood carries is a mutation. But by the Trustees’ rules, a person not derived from the Families’ genealogies can be registered as a newly discovered Howard if he can show proof of four grandparents surviving at least to one hundred. And that rule would have excluded me, had I not been born into the Families. But on top of that, the age I had reached when I got my first rejuvenation is too great to be accounted for by the Howard breeding experiment. They claim today that they have located in the twelfth chromosome pair a gene complex that determines longevity like winding a clock. If so, who wound my clock? Gilgamesh? 'Mutation' is never an explanation; it is simply a name for an observed fact."

Note carefully that the passage clearly does not say the slightest thing about Lazarus' twelfth chromosome pair being a mutation, or that Lazarus has anything special about his twelfth chromosome pair specifically because of a mutation. Heinlein could have said something quite definitive and unambiguous; like that Lazarus had a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair whereas other members of the Howard families inherited an unusual twelfth chromosome pair through the artificial selection of the Howard breeding experiment. But, the passage says no such thing. In fact, Heinlein goes out of his way to make sure that the reader gets the idea that he rejects the idea of a mutation as explaining anything at all. I think if Heinlein really meant to suggest or definitively declare that Lazarus "simply possessed a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair" (these are the exact words used in the paragraph I deleted), and that this explains why Lazarus lived so long, then he would have said so more explicitly. In fact, Heinlein takes pains to point out that Justin Foote doesn't know why Lazarus lived so long (taken from the passage I already quoted--page xvi), so Justin Foote, as Heinlein’s mouthpiece, equates invoking a mutation to explain something with: "which simply says that we don't know." Also, in the passage on page 230, Heinlein writes: "'Mutation' is never an explanation; it is simply a name for an observed fact." So, how can it be accurate to say that Lazarus "simply possessed a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair" to explain his longevity, if mutations are never explanations, especially if there is possibly an alternative and superior explanation provided (namely, he became his own ancestor)?

As a friend with whom I’ve discussed this observed, "all that happens is that Lazarus mentions the possibility, muses about it briefly, and dismisses it as not explaining anything. It's a s-t-r-e-t-c-h to conclude that Heinlein was definitely saying" that Lazarus really did have a mutation in his twelfth chromosome pair. I've therefore decided not to reinsert the paragraph, despite finding the reference to the twelfth chromosome pair. As this same friend of mine aptly remarked, “The passage as written [the paragraph I deleted] seems to me to make too much stew from one oyster.”

Just for clarity, I want to let you know that atheism is fairly central to my world-view, that I think creationism is bunk, and that I believe that evolution is not only “quite probably true” (as Pope John Paul II claimed), but that I believe evolution is without doubt true. So, I am not quibbling because of any ideological bias against mutations that arise in the process of evolution. They quite clearly do arise, in my view. It is merely the case that Heinlein never says or suggests what the other wikipedia writer claimed he did, so we must look elsewhere for why Lazarus lived so long. --Uroshnor 15:14, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You, sir, need to get a life. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.26.99.87 (talk) 14:40, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

The 12th chromosome pair is mentioned also in "Variations on a Theme - X - Possibilities"; again rather uncertainly ("I don't know that there's anything to the theory that reinforcement in a gene complex in that chromosome pair controls longevity."), but both Lazarus and Minerva seem to consider it reasonably likely. Probably elsewhere, too, but it never makes a big point. --Sabik 05:48, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Redirect

Why has this been moved from 'Howard Families'? Both words are capitalized since it is the full proper name. It would be like changing 'New York City Police Department' to New York City police department.' True, 'police department' and 'families' aren't capitalized when used alone, but when those words are included in a proper name, they are.

Anyone trying the Howard Families experiment in real life?

Seems like someone must have started it, in the 50+ years since Heinlein invented the concept. But if so, perhaps they are in their own Masquerade, and adding a "See Also" pointing to that foundation would expose them. --Gnuish (talk) 09:44, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I think the term you're looking for is "eugenics", but don't say it in polite company. The Nazis coopted the term and used it to justify atrocities. 2603:6080:4E06:6B01:416C:C741:36D1:D9CC (talk) 10:28, 17 June 2021 (UTC)