Talk:British Free Corps

Untitled

This article uses British English dialect and spelling.
According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus. |}

I have just added a substantial amount of text which I have taken verbattim from http://members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/BFChistory.html. The website owner (Ed Dyer) has given me permisson to use this text in Wikipedia for which I am very grateful.

Australian and New Zealanders

"In World War II, the British Free Corps (BFC) or Britisches Freikorps was a small unit of the Waffen-SS consisting of British and Commonwealth citizens (chiefly from Australia and New Zealand) who had been recruited by the Nazis."

I am removing the explict link to Australia and New Zealand as the passage above seems to imply either the BFC was chiefly from Australia and New Zealand, or that the Commonwealth members were chiefly from Australia and New Zealand. The Feldgrau reference shows Commonwealth citizens as 3 Canadians, 3 South Africans, 3 Australians and 1 New Zealander; the ANZers were in fact a minority. Commonwealth should suffice.

Kudz75 07:21, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Freeman

According tot the body of the text Freeman was the only memeber nbot charged, yet at the foot, he recieved 10 years. Which is right? 213.48.182.7 15:42, 23 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Comments in bold:

Returning after two days, they found a Hauptsturmführer, in SS panzer uniform, sporting BFC insignia, waiting to take them back to the front. Stiener saw him in this SS panzer uniform, there is no evidence of BFC insignia on it, nor of BFC members seeing him in it.

. Having been booted out of the RAF, - Discharged from pilot training as unsuitable.

ended up as a commander with the SAS in the Middle East where he was branded as "useless" and "dangerous" by his comrades, who eventually refused to conduct operations with him. – Unreferenced, and unsupported by my investigations so far.

He was captured in 1942 by units of the Afrika Korps and taken to an Italian POW camp, which he claimed to have broken out of four times. He was then sent to Oflag 79 in Brunswick until removed for his own safety since the POWs had correctly identified him as a German informer. – Unreferenced.'Bold text'

Standing before the BFC, Berneville-Claye launched into a speech saying he was an earl's son, a captain in the Coldstream Guards, and would collect two armoured cars to take the BFC into battle — even making the claim that the BFC would have no problems with the British authorities and that Great Britain was going to declare war on the Soviet Union in a few days. – Unreferenced.

Cooper called Berneville-Claye's bluff; the officer took one of the BFC men with him as a driver and drove away. Berneville-Claye eventually changed into an SAS uniform while the driver took up farmer's clothing, and they surrendered to the Allies. – WHERE IN GODS NAME DID HE GET AN SAS UNIFORM FROM?

Really wiki, you need to focus more on accuracy!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.253.4.128 (talk) 04:09, 26 November 2009 (UTC)

Clean up

I'm removing this article from cleanup, having made an extensive attempt to straighten out the logic of the material, adding a few new bits of information -- & yes, I've removed some things also (e.g., people mentioned who only appear once in the narrative). There is still much to be done, & these are some of the issues I can think need doing:

• I have not read Adrian Weale's book mentioned in the Bibliography; from what I've read, this is the authoritative account of the unit, & someone should review this article against what is written there. (I don't have access to this book, otherwise I would do it.)
• Exactly how relevant is the role of BQ Sgt. Brown to this article? He is an interesting character, but outside of Dyer's article no other account thinks he's worth mentioning.
• I've seen 2 different accounts of what Pleasants & Leister were doing when the German detained them: E. Dyer's account states they were just a couple of kids detained for trivial reasons; other accounts make it clear they were former British Union of Fascists members & petty thieves.
• There are 2 views of John Wilson: Dwyer says he was coerced into joining, & a miserable sergeant; an account in the online newspaper "Scotland on Sunday" describes him as a martinet, & suggests he might have willingly joined.
• Again, the sources are divided over Hugh Cowie: the Scots newspaper is far more sympathetic towards Cowie, & denies Dwyer's charge that he was part of the act of bigotry against the Maori volunteers.
• Dwyer's account on how exactly the BFC was pulled from the line is contradictory; I simplified his account because of that.
• As the last poster notes above, Dwyer's account is contradictory whether Freeman was punished or not. If one source I used correctly quotes Weale, Freeman was exonerated of all charges.

In a way, this confusion is to be expected. Weale has been quoted to say that the facts around this unit are obscured by numerous myths & inaccuracies. Hopefully I have brought this article closer to the facts of what actually happened. -- llywrch 21:18, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)

I stumbled across this article by accident and found it both fascinating and hilarious. This should be made into a movie! Well done to the authors of this piece. Stephenjh 09:57, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

{unref}

I've placed {{unref}} on here because the source is primarily just one book and there are no inline citations. violet/riga (t) 20:46, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Thomas Cooper

According to this Article in Time Magazine [1], this article in Your Archives [2], his pardon from the national archives [3] and this article from the BBC [4], this man's name was Thomas Haller Cooper not Thomas Allen Cooper. James500 (talk) 17:29, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

The only Briton to obtain a German combat decoration?

British double agent Eddie Chapman aka "ZIGZAG" was awarded the Iron Cross for "sabotaging" the De Havilland aircraft factory at Hatfield. Source:MI5. The Wikipedia article on Chapman says "the first Englishman to receive such an award since the Franco-Prussian War of 1870-71". I don't know if either this or the 1870-71 war counts as combat, but if so Cooper wasn't the only Briton to obtain a German combat decoration. Kiore (talk) 07:50, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

The iron cross is not strickly a combat decoratiion, so no this might not be an error.Slatersteven (talk) 12:46, 30 October 2010 (UTC)

Prevent photograph from being deleted

Who is trying to get this photo deleted? Somebody with a shady past to hide? It is important to preserve such an important piece of history and to show photographic evidence that it did indeed exist. To delete the photograph is tantamount to book burning, unless there is some valid reason given (which so far there does not seem to have been). Nevart (talk) 15:16, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

It's the Wiki Police. I added loads of photos with the same template as used elsewhere, but they deemed fit to delete them. To be honest, I haven't got the time or the energy to fan their egos anymore...

--Trevorsem (talk) 09:31, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Is this new picture genuin?Slatersteven (talk) 17:40, 10 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes it has been in the public domain for many years and from a war time recruitment poster(Trevorsem (talk) 12:59, 27 November 2009 (UTC)).

Removed anti-Semitic political manifesto

The following text, complete with improper formatting and sourced to a non-existent webpage, was included verbatim in the article and does not seem appropriate for an encyclopedic entry; I removed and am archiving here:

John Amery's Proclamation of the Legion of St George

BRITISH NATIONAL REPRESENTATION PROCLAMATION TO ALL BRITISH SUBJECTS INTERNED FELLOW COUNTRYMEN: 150,000 of our fellow countrymen are in prison in the home country, because they have declared themselves against this fratricidal war. In violation of the Habeas Corpus Act and the fundamental laws of our constitution these men have never been brought to trial or even allowed to see a lawyer. American troops have not only occupied Ulster but are arriving in increasing numbers in England. Naval bases and Colonies have been handed over to Mr Roosevelt's administration.

BEYOND ALL THIS This war has ceased to be a war of nations but has become a war of CONCEPTION

Europe and our country, your wives and children at home are menaced by the invasion of the HORDES OF BOLCHEVICK BARBARITY.

For this reason I have approached the German Government with the proposal to form A BRITISH LEGION AGAINST BOLCHEVISM, to be known as the LEGION of ST GEORGE.

I appeal to all Britishers to answer this call to arms for the defence of all the principles that we Englishmen have been the first to proclaim in the world.

THE DEFENCE OF OUR HOMES, OF OUR CHILDREN AND OF ALL CIVILISATION AGAINST THE DRAGON OF ASIATIC AND JEWISH BESTIALITY.

The St George Legion will fight only against the Communists and on NO OTHER FRONT!

All men will commence in their present rank and promotion will be open to all men alike, without any distinctions or qualification, political or otherwise. Within the limits of the military possibilities the Legion of St George will fight at the junction of the German-Finnish front, beside the troops of the undaunted liberty loving Finnish people.

The British Representation in Berlin formally guarantee to all ranks: A PERMANENT WELL PLACED JOB IN THE BRITISH ADMINISTRATION OR A PRIORITY IN ANY OTHER EMPLOYMENT THEY SHOULD DESIRE ONCE PEACE IS SIGNED, OR THE POSSIBILITY TO FORM THE ELITE IN THE NEW BRITISH ARMY.

Hundreds of soldiers have volunteered to join this Legion. Men who have escaped to England have come to join us. Three Royal Air Force aeroplanes have come over to us so far with their arms and equipment. It is up to you civilians to give a hand to show that we intend to take our responsibilities to maintain THE INTEGRITY OF OUR EMPIRE, by giving the world proof that we have not all sold out to the JEW OR PLUTOCRAT. I ASK YOU TO OPT NATIONAL The British Representation which is a 100% British organisation will take no steps whatever of intimidation against the persons who do not opt, BUT fellow countrymen the world is watching us, EUROPE EXPECTS THAT EVERY CIVILISED MAN WILL DO HIS DUTY, National England desires that you will show yourselves worthy of Nelson's immortal signal: ENGLAND EXPECTS THIS DAY EVERY MAN WILL DO HIS DUTY Your place is with us Nationalists .... Your duty is to opt NATIONAL under the glorious banner of St George we are going to write a new page in the History of the British Empire: more, WE SHALL SAVE THE BRITISH EMPIRE FROM COMMUNISM AND AMERICAN RAPACITY. We shall show the world that free Englishmen:

NEVER, NEVER WILL BE THE SLAVES OF A JEWISH PLUTOCRATIC TYRANNY, THAT WE ARE WORTHY DESCENDANTS OF THE YEOMEN THAT DICTATED MAGNA CHARTA. Pay no attention to waverings or opposition: the first to opt will be the examples of bravery and courage to those that now waver or are against us but who will have to join us one day when they realise all the truth. In these fatal days when we are before the bar of civilisation: I beg, I demand, that you put aside all hesitations, all the prejudice, all the lies that have led you where you are ... that you take this IMMENSE OPPORTUNITY THAT I HAVE OBTAINED AND WITH ME, WITH ALL THOSE THAT HAVE ALREADY JOINED. YOU WILL OPT NATIONAL…FOR ENGLAND AND ST GEORGE! PARIS 20-4-43 John AMERY[1]

71.175.4.207 (talk) 01:51, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Try reading Hitlers renegades page Page 196 you wil, find thqat this is accurate (including the strange formating).Slatersteven (talk) 11:28, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

The fact that something is published in a book is no reason it should be included here verbatim with no sourcing, for the same reason that the entire Poor Richard's Almanack is not included in the entry for Benjamin Franklin. The material above is a long rambling diatribe that contributes nothing to the article. A salient passage or two could be quoted with the appropriate footnote to the book you reference. As for formatting, there's no stylistic reason that it should be kept exactly as it appeared. 71.175.4.207 (talk) 02:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Other then to demonstrate what he considerd improtant no, and why he wanted to form the BFC no.Slatersteven (talk) 12:57, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Why names all in upper case

The article is rife with screamer caps for names. This seems contrary to Wikipedia style. Was there a reason for this non-standard format when italics could have been used? 71.175.4.207 (talk) 01:55, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://replay.web.archive.org/20021008051756/http://members.aol.com/sturmpnzr/BFChistory.html. Infringing material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.) For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, but not as a source of sentences or phrases. Accordingly, the material may be rewritten, but only if it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Unfortunately, policy does not permit us to retain this content without verification of license, which was not provided during the listing period. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 13:09, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

Commanders

I have sorted out the section on 'Commanders' and added a paragraph on the sources of confusion about the relatively straightforward story of the BFC. I have removed the name 'Roggenfeld' from the list of commanders as this was simply the pseudonym coined by the writer 'The Marquis de Slade'(in reality John G 'Ted' Slade) for Hans Werner Roepke, the SS officer who was in charge of the unit in 1943-44. Griz999 (talk) 10:41, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Use of the term 'Convinced Nazi'

The phrase "convinced Nazi" is used twice in this article (both in the Popular Culture section). I think clarification is needed on what that term means exactly, and if it has some specific meaning in that context. 60.225.245.231 (talk) 11:48, 26 June 2013 (UTC)

Unreliable Source?

The article cites "Robert A. Best: The British Free Corps: The Story of the British Volunteers of the Waffen SS. London: Steven Books, 2010. ISBN 978-1-9049-1190-6". Based on what appears about Steven Books at Keith Thompson (politician), I suggest that this should be deleted as unreliable. Alekksandr (talk) 18:14, 18 January 2015 (UTC)

Now done. Alekksandr (talk) 20:18, 21 January 2015 (UTC)

Number of members

The article states that 'Research by a British journalist, Adrian Weale, has identified about 59 men who belonged to this unit at one time or another'. That figure is the total number of men who appear in Weale's book 'Renegades', Appendix 5, 'British Members of the British Free Corps and their Aliases' However, that list includes: -

• Douglas Berneville-Claye - SS-Hauptamt
• James Brady - 502nd SS Jäger Battalion, later SS-Jagdverband Mitte
• Railton Freeman - SS-Standarte Kurt Eggers
• Vivian Stranders - SS HA - Amtsgruppe D
• Frank Stringer - 502nd SS Jäger Battalion, later SS-Jagdverband Mitte

None of these men appear to have actually been members of the BFC. I therefore propose to amend the number to 54. Alekksandr (talk) 18:59, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Now done.Alekksandr (talk) 21:07, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

References