Talk:Galician-Portuguese language

Correction

When I was creating the article I've said that i've taken this from Portuguese wikipedia... in reality, i've taken from Spanish Wikipedia.Pedro 00:36, 9 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Only written language?

Removed:

Then, Portuguese-Galician was (with Latin) the only written language in the Peninsula

This ignores Arabic, Mozarabic and Hebrew at the least. -- Error 03:31, 10 Apr 2004 (UTC)

what??????????????? tought I understand your point of view I'll rephrase (in Christian Iberia. I think you must be a Spanish nationalist or something like that! I'll replace the phrase, because that why the language was Popular in SPAIN!!! Deleting the phrase is a very stupid thing to do! I thought you were smarter! Information is to be given, not to be hidden. I cant give you sources conferming that (on the net)

Define "then". If you mean the era of Alfonso X, it is wrong. Alfonso himself was an author in Castilian, though he chose P-G for poetry. And I'd have to check but I guess that Catalan and Occitan were already written by then. As far as I know, the role of poetry language of P-G was limited to the Western Christian kingdoms. In the Eastern ones, it was Occitan (see Troubadour). And certainly Mozarabic language is the first Iberian Romance used for poetry, though you could argue whether it was being written then. -- Error 04:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

that's the normal undervaluation of Portuguese language in the modern times - in the rest of the world. My sources says that when Castillian started to be written, Galician became under siege. And the language turned from noble to peasant. Continue to "Guess"; I'll continue to study, all that I write in here has reliable backup.Pedro 01:46, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm reading a book about Portuguese-Galician. A very stupid thing is you attributing a Portuguese Creole as a Spanish just because they have 10% of lexicon from Spanish. What is the most lammest thing to do! The only unsurred is Papiamento, because Portuguese reminence is shrinking, what doesn't happen in Fá D'Ambô.

It is in the nature of creoles to be influenced by several languages. I saw that Fala had an influence of Spanish, so I decided to include it with the Spanish Creoles. I tried to not hide the fact that the main European influence is Portuguese. Emphasize it if it's not clear. - Error 04:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That's true. Portuguese has 10% of its lexicon based on Arabic. I really dont believe that we speak Arabic, or our language is based on it.

For example it is not difficult to a Portuguese speaker understand the latin of the movie "Passion of Christ". That even astonished many people, a guy said "our language is very old." - i find that sentence curious! It is really similar to what we speak today; a Portuguese trying to understand Arabic, is impossible, unless he knowns it. Just a side view.

As an aside, I have expressed my doubt in Talk:The Passion of the Christ that the Latin in the film may be much too Romance for 33 AD. Comment there if you know about the subject. -- Error 01:56, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

The Base = biggest source. You cant put as base all the minimal content from various languages. That's a simplistic POV, unreliable and incorrect. But, i dont disagree with Fâ d'Ambo in the Spanish Creole article. In fact, I Agree, but it should be very well explicit that is a creole influenced by spanish and not a Spanish Creole! In Papiamento, there is a complicated situation.Pedro

A thing's for sure, you love Spain, and acting as you did, you must be Spanish. Hebrew in Iberia?

The Sephardim were the most developed Jewish community in Europe during the Middle Ages. They excelled in Hebrew literature (and Arabic and Romance,...). The Kabbalah was developed enormously in Iberia. -- Error 04:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Very interresting. I think the expulsion of the Jews from Iberia was a very sad story, and Iberia lost a lot. Portugal had a big community and many from Spain came to live in the country, but we have the problem that Spain had a lot of influence in the vatican, and Portugal didn't want to loose what it has gained. But that is not the core of the question. Hebrew was less important than Russian is today in here.Pedro 01:46, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't agree. I don't remember numbers for the % of Jews in Iberia (10%?) but I can say that a big chunk of the alphabetized population of Iberia knew Hebrew.

Russian in widely spoken in Portugal by emigrants. For what I've known about Hebrews is that they were always a minority. many Jews turned Christian and adopt names of Fruit Trees. My last name is "Oliveira" (Oliver) Maybe I've a Jewish past. Eheh! That continues to be out of the reality. If there was a big community of Hebrew speakers, then why the only Hebrew Words comes from the Church? In Portuguese we even have got a hundred words of Spanish origin, and with Spanish the same towards Portuguese. And believe me that was very difficult to happen (even being neighbours). Even with a small contact, there was contact. Where is Hebrew? Pedro 19:38, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

maibe Chinese in Iberia? French hã? Russian!!!! Is a fact that we normally forget Arabic of the conquered lands by the Moorish (what is a POV), dought Arabic was not widly spreed even in there. But in that way, you are wright, but you act wrongly. Pedro 01:50, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Andalusi poets are still reverred among speakers of Arabic. -- Error 04:01, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

we study very few the Moorish Establishment in iberia, my country is the same one, and we only study that "Portugal freed the south and expeld the invading Moors", "we use words from Arabic and technology from them", "the 1st king of Portugal won a war against 7 Moorish kings" (whose castles are today in the Portuguese coat of Arms) and few more than this.Pedro 01:46, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Finnaly, I also found very curious that Port.-Gal. was the first written language of the peninsula (i said of the... is the same to say: native), so I've wanted people to know that.Pedro 01:46, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Can you throw some date? One could say that the only native language in Medioeval Iberia is Basque. The rest (Romances, Arabic, Hebrew,...) are imported or local evolutions.

Mozarabic kharjas were written in the 10th and 11th centuries (Examples in Spanish).

Glosas Emilianenses (how to say in English?) are in Basque and Riojan Romance from the 11th century.

-- Error 01:56, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

1st: Mozarabic was written in Arabic not in Latin Alphabet. 2nd it was not in Christian Europe.

You have a terrible definition of what's native. Native is a language spoken for some generations in some place. There's no language that really borns in a place, even Basque. Obviouly that Romance was a/the native language of the Peninsula, the population accepted the language gladly ages before. Besides, the Romans mixed with locals, following a genetic study, Portuguese are highly related with Italians, more that with Castillians, even if they (we) preserve specific local genes.

Glosas Emilianenses, in Eng. would be "Emilianese Languages" (never eard, I'll read that, interresting).

interjection - this is wrong - Glosas would be glosses as they are annotations on a Latin text. There is some debate as to whether they are really proto-Castilian or another Romance dialect. --Alan 18:09, 17 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I've created a writting system for a dialect, that could become a language in 300 hundred yrs from now. So i've written the first document! Curious but (somewhat) stupid. This conversation will get to nowhere. Tought I like to discuss and argue (with You, in the case), but I would preferr in my language; in English I cant express as I would like :(

Tought in Galicia, in the News, they said to found the more ancient document in Portuguese-Galician (date: i dont know); a part of that, the first documents are from 1192 and 1193, I've read the document of 1214 (used by the Portuguese King Afonso II) I got bowrred in the middle of the reading.Pedro 19:38, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Old Portuguese

I have never seen the term Old Portuguese be applied to Galician-Portuguese. This needs to be verified, especially since it can be misleading (can Old Galician be called "Old Portuguese"?!) FilipeS 16:05, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it is applied in English. This is the En wikipedia. Yes it can. -Pedro 22:13, 2 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most important cities of Galicia?

What justifies the following statement?

Two of the most important Galician cities at the time, Braga and Porto, became independent with Portugal, while Santiago de Compostela was already a separated entity previous to the independence of Portugal.

In what sense was Santiago de Compostela a "separated entity", prior to the independence of Portugal? And what made Porto an important city of Galicia in the 12th century? FilipeS 14:20, 23 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Galician-Portuguese

The best name for the article is Galician-Portuguese. I have always heard of it that way, and:

In English: In Google, "Galician-Portuguese" brings 30.300 entries, and Portuguese-Galician, 11.700.
In Portuguese: in Portuguese wikipedia it is named Galaico-português[1]
In Spanish it is named Galaicoportugués or galaico-portugués. [2]
In both Spanish and Portuguese: Google entries for "galaico-portugues" are 35.200. For "galaicoportugués", 1.100. For "portugues-galaico", 88.

I think we must move the article.--Garcilaso 17:35, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Here's an answer: SIL Ethnologue

Classification Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Gallo-Iberian, Ibero-Romance, West Iberian, Portuguese-Galician In English words tend to be used not in the same sequence as in Portuguese or Spanish. But if that's a problem to you... -Pedro 22:36, 15 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

No problem at all if it were true. That link is one of the 11.700 entries of Google to "Portuguese-Galician". Here you have some of the 30.300 (more than the double) that brings "Galician-Portuguese". [3][4][5][6]. It is mostly significative that some of the main entries of "Portuguese-Galician" are mirror pages of this article.

These are some of the books published in English on the subject:

Thomas R. Hart `En maneira de proençal': The Medieval Galician-Portuguese Lyric. 1998, ISBN 0 904188 45 0
Richard Zenith One Hundred Thirteen Galician-Portuguese Troubadour Poems Aspects of Portugal, 1996 ISBN: 185754207X
Maria Lima Schantz A Feminist Interpretation Of The Galician-Portuguese Cantigas De AmigoEDWIN MELLEN PRESS, 2004 ISBN 0773462589 (EAN 9780773462588)
The Cambridge History of Spanish Literature,Edited by David T. Gies, University of Virginia, 2005 ISBN-13: 9780521806183 | ISBN-10: 0521806186, in the pages 43, 48, 56, 88, 118
Ulf Malm, Dolssor Conina. Lust, the Bawdy and Obscenity in Medieval Occitan and Galician-Portuguese Troubadour Poetry and Latin Secular Love Song. Acta Universitatis Upsaliensis, Historia litterarum, 22. Samlaren, Tidskrift för svensk litteraturvetenskaplig forskning, vol. 124, 2003
AN ANTHOLOGY OF ANCIENT AND MEDIEVAL WOMAN'S SONG, Edited by Anne L. Klinck, From Palgrave Macmillan, Apr 2004, A chapter dedicated to Galician-Portuguese. [7]
Frede Jensen: Medieval Galician-Portuguese poetry : an anthology New York : Garland, 1992. ISBN: 0824071093[8]

I hope this helps. Cheers!--Garcilaso 11:03, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Funny thing! I have read properly the link offered as a justification of the use of "Portuguese-Galician" [9] and it doesn´t refer to the medieval language but to a branch of modern languages of the same roots: Fala, Portuguese and Galician. Cheer up! Garcilaso 12:38, 16 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]