Talk:Taliesin

Untitled

Llywrch - you're right, it's five. Pachiaammos 10 May 07:50

You had me worried there, so I checked my copy of the HB. And figured that I better list all of them to avoid an edit war. -- llywrch

Owain - I'm surprised you're disputing a point that can be verified on any decent map of Wales. The Gwent/Glamorgan border runs well to the west of the Usk, along the hills above the Sirhowy. Pachiaammos 10 May 07:50

I'm staying out of this one. Unfortunately, the closest I've ever been to Wales was Gloucester about 20 years ago, & I'm not going to offer an opinion over something I clearly know nothing about. -- llywrch 03:04, 11 May 2004 (UTC)

Corn

This page links to the disambiguation page Corn, but I'm not sure which sense is intended. Can you help? Thanks. — Pekinensis 21:31, 4 May 2005 (UTC)

Since this portion of the article was written in Britain, I'm certain "corn" is not meant in the sense of "maize" -- but it'd require some further research to determine which cereal was intended here (e.g., what is mostly likely the meaning of the Welsh word here?) -- llywrch 18:27, 5 May 2005 (UTC)

Tegid Veol

I propose that this lonely stub get merged into Taliesin and a redirect created. Ifnord 15:39, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

About the time this proposal was, um, proposed, that article was merged into Ceridwen. I think it makes more sense there. I thought I'd mention it so no one goes looking to fix it (like I did). -- Straif 21:24, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Gwion Bach

As Gwion Bach is a stub, and at best it will always be a subset of this article, I would like to suggest that it be merged and replaced with a redirect. Before I formally propose it (Wikipedia:Merging and moving pages), I'd like to get a second opinion. -- Straif 20:29, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I redirected it (the info was mostly redundant). Thanks for pointing that out.--Cuchullain 23:41, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Absent from this article is the story of how Gwion Bach becomes Taliesin after tasting a potion made by Ceridwen for her own hideous son Morfan. I couldn't find the book, but if someone would like to track down the reference, look for Patrick K Ford, "Ystoria Taliesin", 1992, University of Wales Press. It is apparently written in Welsh, but one Amazon reviewer suggests "The Mabinogi and Other Medieval Welsh Tales" (Ford) for a translation.TerryToogood (talk) 17:47, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Modern Fiction

I'm sure there are dozens of books that have a bard, druid, or wizard named Taliesin. Since including them all would be prohibitive, what would the criteria be for inclusion? While the MZB and Lawhead books are popular, do their versions of Taliesin have much to do with either the historical figure or the character from Hanes Taliesin (besides the name and occupation)? I read the Mists of Avalon long ago, and haven't read Lawhead at all, so I'm probably not the best person to answer that question. I see the value in keeping the Modern Fiction section, but I'm not sure if it adds value or not. Regardless, it needs to be cleaned up. If I get a chance I can try, but someone that has read the books might do a better job. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Straif (talk • contribs)

I'm usually against these kinds of sections in articles, they tend to populate themselves with irrelevant material. When I'm trimming them back, I usually try to make sure the work in question is actually about the article's subject, that the subject is the primary focus of the work, or at least very prominantly featured, and that the work itself is notable enough to merit inclusion. I make exceptions for the more prominant works (prominant as in Tennyson or the Once and Future King, that is, not just prominant in the fantasy genre).--Cúchullain t c 22:21, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree that Taliesen is a popular character to include in a lot of fantasy novels. I can think of at least three books offhand where Taliesen plays a major role, but most of these take great liberties with Taliesen's supposed background. If I had read this discussion page first, I might have been better able to make my case for the inclusion of the Fionavar Tapestry, but it may be just as well that I didn't. (The fact that the books are eventually revealed to be a new retelling of the Arthurian Legends is actually considered to be a major plot spoiler, so I had left that out. I wouldn't feel comfortable reinserting the book with a spoiler attached to it.) That being said, having read some of the books in the current list, I'd suggest removing this section completely or changing its purpose so that it merely discusses the fact that Taliesen does appear frequently in the fantasy genre. -- Maura Dailey

Is Deep Purple's album 'Book of Taliesyn' meant to use any of the real 'book of Taliesin'? is that album 'large' enough to be mentioned?

From what I can remember -- generally one can trust that -- MZB's Taliesin was known to be the greatest bard over Brittain, long before King Arthur was borne. He would be also a Druid Priest, since according to her story all Druid Priest learned first of all the arts of the bards. Taliesin appears in MoA as well as in The Lady of Avalon third part. He's said to be Igraine's and Morgause's father, although he would have done that while under the posession of the Horned God, therefore, not being able to claim his fatherhood -- and is also said no one could claim to the be father of a child mothered by the Lady of the Lake. In her legend, Taliesin would be Arthur's (and Morgaine's) grandfather, if he were actually Igraine's father. According to her legend, Taliesin isn't Merlin, Merlin being not a title for the Archdruid, but an ancient wise spirit that a Druid Priest could invite to share his body in moments of great help. Taliesin's and Merlin's would have known each other from previous life's, portraied in The Fall of Atlantis and Ancestor's of Avalon (that was actually written by Diane L. Paxon), Merlin would be an young kid in the first book, named Chedan and later, when becaming a wise old man -- in Ancestor's -- he would come to Brittain with the people that managed to flee from the Alantis islands, being named Merlin by the local British people. Taliesin, on the other hand, was probably an old Priest featured in Fall of Atlantis, whose name was Rajasta. Therefore, one can say that her Taliesin isn't that all far from the historical one -- also, isn't totally loyal to the actual man either. User:Diana Prallon

Pronunciation!

I should like to see an explanation - using IPA - of how the name Taliesin is pronounced in Welsh. Many other pages with non-English names (and some with English ones too!) include a pronunciation guide and I think this should have one as well. Nothingbutmeat 08:56, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

2011-06-30 1817 - RD - the comment above seems to have been dealt with, but isn't the Welsh pronunciation [talˈjɛʃɪn] rather than [talˈjɛsɪn]? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rd@cotswold-it.co.uk (talk • contribs) 17:22, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Floruit and categories

I'd love to know where this comes from - "Taliesin (c. 534 – c. 599)". All that most scholars will venture, based on what little we know, is that he lived in the second half of the 6th century. To make matters worse he was categoried in "534 births" and "599 deaths" - truly astounding news to anyone familiar with the subject! It's a great pity that the category "sub-Roman writers" was created as well. Neither he nor Aneirin or any other poet from that period were writers - the bardic tradition was oral and poetry was composed in the head (same goes for most of the Middle Ages as well). Oh, and he was definitely not "from Monmouthshire" either (which wasn't created till nearly a millenium after him anyway... ). Please be more careful with these categories and dates. Enaidmawr (talk) 00:00, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was not moved -- Aervanath (talk) 05:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

---

I believe it would be more convenient for Wikipedia users for this page to go to the Taliesin Disambiguation page rather than directly to the poet, because I believe it is an unsupported and unbiased assumption that people seeking "Taliesin" are, in general, naturally seeking the poet Taliesin. I am not denying the poet's relative importance, but am asserting that other uses (for example, the Frank Lloyd Wright estates in Wisconsin and AZ) have recently come into vogue, not just in America, and that in fact, most searches on "Taliesin" on Google (and other search engines) bring up other uses at least just as much as the poet himself. Consequently, I ask for a vote and/or at least tacit approval that we make this move, and make this page instead into a simple, unbiased, disambiguation page--with Taliesin (the poet) at the top of course.

What do you all say? Mr manilow (talk) 17:49, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

• Agree However, the name of the new article should technically be Taliesin (poet). --BlueSquadronRaven 19:11, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
• Agreed. Taliesin (poet), of course. I've noted the change in the proposal header above, and on the Requested Move page. --Mr manilow (talk) 20:35, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
• Very strongly disagree. The poet is the original use of the term, all others derive from it. Even the Frank Lloyd Wright use is comparatively recent, as well as derivative. None of the other uses are remotely as widespread. This is textbook primary use.--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:24, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
• Very strongly disagree. For the reasons noted by Cuchullain and for the fact that Taliesin is a central figure in Welsh culture: you may as well argue for moving Homer to Homer (poet) because - as is quite likely - most people come here looking for Homer Simpson. Enaidmawr (talk) 22:44, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
• Disagree. Hit count is only one reason to move pages, Taliesin is too important a cultural flagstone of Wales too become a disambiguation page to a building. I concur with Enaidmawr's argument. FruitMonkey (talk) 22:52, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

• I feel like the comment above precisely demonstrates what's wrong with not using Taliesin as a disambiguation page, for several different (but related) reasons:

(1) Taliesin is too important a cultural flagstone of Wales. Taliesin (the poet) has hardly had the worldwide impact Wright has, by any measure or stretch of the imagination: Wright wrote books (admittedly rather badly) and built buildings. Doesn't that explain why we're having this discussion to begin with? In all seriousness: If Taliesin remains "the main" (or primary) entry in the disambiguation page, why should this be an issue? (2) A building? ("A disambiguation page to a building?"). This represents an entirely inadequate understanding. Wright's enterprises - which go by the name Taliesin - are far more than a building: They are a major American cultural icon, representing not only an important (if not highly prestigious) architecture school, a landmark cultural foundation and tourist attractions in Arizona and Wisconsin, etc. "Taliesin" refers to far more than a building: in addition to two recent fiction bestsellers, there are numerous works referencing Taliesin as a cultural icon. e.g. The Fellowship, a recent work. (3) Taliesin as a name would be hardly known outside of Wales were it not for Wright's influence. This should be duly noted and respected. (4) etc etc etc. IN SUMMATION: this debate should certainly not be decided by people who are highly partial to Welsh culture, nor should it be decided by architecture addicts like me. A broader segment of the editorial/admin. population should be brought to bear on this discussion. --Mr manilow (talk) 00:11, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• I see that I could make my argument in the following, much briefer, way. Enaidmawr, Cúchullain, and FruitMonkey's arguments are flawed for this very precise reason, that can be verified empirically (on the Internet, through search engines like Google, and elsewhere): in many, important, various, and intellectual circles (not just relating to architecture), the term "Taliesin" has become a synonym for "Frank Lloyd Wright"--a figure whom, in the West, has a comparable influence (if not actual importance) to Taliesin. This is an empirical argument. It can be tested, and it should not be ignored. --Mr manilow (talk) 00:16, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
• Empircal data of note: Google searches for "Taliesin" yield only 903,000 results, and this includes the technically more numerous references to Frank Lloyd Wright's estate, Taliesin; searches for "Frank Lloyd Wright" (yes, in quotations) yield not less than 3,480,000 results.
• Similar statistics could be found using more conventional bibliographic devices, including works published, works about, etc. etc. ad nauseum. In any case, this whole debate should not be taken to slight the bard Taliesin in the slightest. *The fact that Wright named his estate after him is highly significant, yet his influence in publicizing the bard should not be underestimated, nor remain (as it is here) highly un(der)appreciated. --Mr manilow (talk) 00:22, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

Disagree with this proposal (and Taliessin was Cumbrian) (but more notable from my own experience). FLW adopted the name of the poet because its fame had lasted over 1000 years. However I think the name is really important because of Deep Purple. Just check the hits on Google for THEM! Redheylin (talk) 00:35, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree. Anyone wanting to find out more about Frank Lloyd Wright will enter Frank Lloyd Wright and there is a link to Taliesin (studio) on that page. I note that the studio is of such importance that it only has a mention on FLW's page as an aside, being interesting "most notably for the 1914 fire and murders" there - and that's not until the end of the third paragraph. Frank Lloyd Wright would turn in his grave if he knew that his estate (to quote from the Taliesin (studio) page: "Wright never thought of it as a series of buildings with a long-term future") would ever be considered to rank as equal to the poet, whom he so admired. Daicaregos (talk) 07:41, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Strong diagree as per many comments above. It would similar to asking that George Washington be moved to George Washington (President) to distinguish it from George Washington (pub) and then have a disambig page for George Washington  Velela  ^{Velela Talk}   11:00, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Very strongly disagree. For all the reasons above by Enaidmawr, Cuchullain, and Fruitmonkey. In addition, perhaps this text from Taliesin, The Bards and Druids of Britain, 1858 explains it well:

"..we find in a paper, published in the Transactions of the British Association for the Advancement of Science, in 1847, a learned philologer, Dr. Meyer, citing the Welsh Triads for the elucidation of British ethnology, and giving a metrical German and a prose English translation of a poem ascribed to Taliesin, as "one of the most ancient monuments of Welsh literature, a sacrificial hymn addressed to the god Pryd, in his character as god of the Sun."

"The ancient Druid is, in fact, the most prominent figure in British archaeology. Clothed in his robe of white, " the emblem of holiness, and peculiarly of truth," with his golden sickle in his hand, he claims dominion over cairn and barrow,"

"The same views are enunciated in works of even later date. Mr. Herbert, in his Cyclops Christianus, in 1842, the author of the Biographical Dictionary of Eminent Welshmen, in 1852, and the Ven. Archdeacon Williams in Gomer, in 1854, present the same account of an ancient philosophy and mythology, to be discovered in the writings of Welsh Bards, supposed to be of the date of the sixth century, and especially in those of the celebrated Taliesin."

~Geaugagrrl ^talk 15:36, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree. Google hits are not a guide to how people look for articles on wikipedia, they are a guide to how people look for subjects on Google. There may appear to be a correlation, but this is false reasoning. The fact is that a significant proportion of wikipedia users are not American and would never have heard of Frank Lloyd Wright. Those who have would be more likely to use wikipedia as a means of finding out the original meaning of the name. Wright chose the name Taliesin because of his own Welsh ancestry and named his architectural concept after something that already meant something to him in cultural terms. Deb (talk) 20:56, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

• It is clear (to me, at least) that this vote is being dominated by people who are partial to Taliesin the poet, and are not overly familiar with Frank Lloyd Wright, his life and works--which are undubitably more prominent and pronounced in ALL aspects of popular culture, save Wikipedia. Let Wikipedia be the sole exception to reality, just this once, is what seems to the prevalent outcome of this vote. Nevertheless, in statistical terms, the case is closed:

See Google Trends: http://www.google.com/trends?q=frank+lloyd+wright%2C+taliesin[1] Far more people are searching for Frank Lloyd Wright than Taliesin to begin with (even if it is debatable that at least half of those searches are in fact looking for material on FLW). To think that Google searches are not a relevant indicator of what people are looking for on wikipedia is lunacy to the extreme. In actual fact, the ONLY place in the world where more people are searching for Taliesin than Frank Lloyd Wright is in Wales: http://www.google.com/trends?q=frank+lloyd+wright,+taliesin&geo=gbr&sa=N This debate/vote is clearly flawed by extreme ethno-centricity, and I am not even an American BTW. --Mr manilow (talk) 23:38, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

It just goes to show there are far more Welsh than Americans using wiki. Redheylin (talk) 00:13, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Ha, yeah, that must be it. Mr manilow, please don't take disagreement from myself and others personally, this is an intellectual disagreement. As to your reliance on the "Google test," Wikipedia has a good guide on search engine tests and how to use them to answer research questions like this. In short, just because one topic gets a lot of hits on Google, that doesn't necessarily mean it is the primary use, or indicate why something is mentioned a lot. One would expect that a more recent architect from a technologically advanced country would appear on the internet more than an early medieval Welsh poet, but is that Internet prominence alone really an indicator of importance? I don't think so, and neither do most other editors who have weighed in here.--Cúchullain ^t/c 02:15, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

95,400 hits for "Taliesyn", largely because that's the spelling adopted (for some reason) by Deep Purple on their LP The Book of Taliesyn. I assume that title means they were thinking of T, not FLW. Of course, this outweighs the hits on THE book of Taliessin (available in facsimile online, folks!) Redheylin (talk) 02:26, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Talking of music, any chance of moving Frank Lloyd Wright to make way for the Paul Simon song? Betcha that's where the most people heard the name! But seriously, Mr Manilow, I think it was a reasonable idea from where you are standing, but FLW is available on his own page, plus you DO have the option of a page "Taliessin Foundation" or similar, no? This guy IS an outstanding poet - apparently the first by a long chalk to leave written poetry in the vernacular, while the works attributed to him similarly predate the troubadors. His stock is liable to rise if anything. Redheylin (talk) 02:41, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

• Disagree for three simple reasons: 1) the articles listed on the dab page all have other words (such as Orchestra) in their title, so it's not ambiguous in the sense that a page move is called for; 2) I have never been to Britain at all, and I immediately recognize Taliesin (the poet), but I can't say any of the others (except Book of Taliesin, but again, not ambiguous) have any traction as common use of the name; 3) All the other entries on the dab page derive their name from that of the poet, so how can he not be the main subject? There is a custom, here on en.WP, to make the simplified name direct to the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC with a WP:HATNOTE at the top to direct traffic to the dab page. That is how this article is set up, so no change is necessary. It's not ambiguous, and most people searching "Taliesin" (not "Book of Taliesin" or the like) are looking for the poet. Additionally, I think people looking for Frank Lloyd Wright are in reality more likely to search "Frank Lloyd Wright", and the simple fact that FLW used Taliesin's name the way he did does not give him such license to the name as to obliterate the original namesake's claim to it. As someone said before, this looks to me like moving George Washington to ''George Washington (president). Wilhelm_meis (talk) 00:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, per above, primary usage. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 03:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose per above: (a) poet is the primary usage, and has been for a very, very long time; (b) Google test is not as clear-cut as suggested (try e.g. Google Scholar) and in any event popularity does not equal notability or relative importance; (c) argument for move is also based on a very "recentist" approach, and page moves are not popularity contests. Taliesin is not a synonym for FLW, as suggested above. Bencherlite^Talk 13:24, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Bucklet

Is "bucklet" a real word? Someone please give me a cite. I am tempted to change it to "bucket", but I am asking here on the off chance that it's a misspelling of something else, or even an obscure term found nowhere but but the story of Taliesin. Websearching "bucklet" I find misspellings of "bucket" and "buckle" and naught else.  Randall Bart   Talk  10:49, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

S'one changed it to buckler. Manytexts (talk) 23:51, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Name?

In the Birth section, the boy "shoves Morfran out of the way" - is this the name of the blind man? Before this the blind man's name isn't given or not known. Is this a contradiction? Thanks, Manytexts (talk) 23:33, 25 April 2012 (UTC)

Morfran is Ceridwen's son, who she was brewing the potion for. He did not help in making the potion himself. The blind man just kinda... fades out of the story. --Oppolo (talk) 22:45, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

British vs. Brythonic

I would like to disambiguate the he was "an early British poet of the post-Roman period", mainly because I think the term "British" can be misleading to anyone unfamiliar with post-Roman ethnic groups. "British" is often today used interchangeably with "English," or even more broadly in reference to the UK. It makes it sound as if Taliesin may have been part of the Ango-Saxon tradition, instead of the Celtic Cymry, speaking and composing in a form of what would become Welsh. And even though it links to a page for the Britons (Celtic), I think unless you do this further delving, it is still misleading. I propose it by changed to Brythonic, but may still be linked to the same page. --Florimell1919 (talk) 03:31, 22 January 2013 (UTC)

How did Taliesin taste the potion?

This article says that "Gwion Bach shoved Morfran out of the way so he could get the three drops". This contradicts the article on Ceridwen (the potion brewer), where it says "Three hot drops spilled onto Gwion's thumb as he stirred, burning him. He instinctively put his thumb in his mouth, and gained the wisdom and knowledge Ceridwen had intended for her son." I'm familiar with the version on Ceridwen's page, which portrays Taliesin as a much more pure character. I'd be interested to know the sources of the two versions. Perhaps we could have a section on this conflict, if anybody could find sources. --Oppolo (talk) 22:50, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Festiniog Railway locomotive

The Festiniog Railway Company has had three locomotives named after Talisin in its history. Two single Fairlies and one Double Fairlie. Would it be relevant to mention this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.203.254.1 (talk) 09:12, 28 May 2013 (UTC)

Incorrect Link

In the opening section on Taliesin, the link for "yellow plague" (which may have killed Maelgwn Gwynedd) takes you to "yellow fever" which can't be right. Following the link for Maelgwn Gwynedd, there we find a link that connects "yellow plague" with Justinian's plague which seems much more plausible. I don't know how to edit this, though; can someone else fix it?

Chocofluff (talk) 03:11, 22 January 2018 (UTC)

"Lead Rewrite" is impractical. perhaps some simple editing

This article has been marked with

I assume the editor wanted better biographical information. Unfortunately there is no verifiable, historical information. The best that could be done, as far as I can see, is to move the first paragraph of ==Biography== into the intro to substantiate what little evidence exists that he exists (and isn't two or more individuals). I believe "Biography" section might even be re-titled to something like Authorship and Legends. I would do it myself, but I try to keep my edits minimal, there's too much maliciousness in Wikidpedia to try and stand behind sincere edits. It's like hitting one's head on a brick wall.

Or we can just keep this label on the article forevermore and let people know how pathetic Wikipedia is. I don't care anymore. 75.71.166.197 (talk) 23:49, 9 April 2022 (UTC)

Magical world

I love folklore. Some say it’s true -Michaela Hyperkitty1 (talk) 06:45, 3 May 2023 (UTC)