Talk:Baseball/Archive 1

This is an archive of past discussions about Baseball. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

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Is it really that popular in Australia? I'm live in Australia, and I almost never hear about it. We don't seem to have any major big-league competition, and I've never seen a baseball match on TV. (Of course, some people play it, but it isn't a very major sport.) So its popularity here is nothing like that in the US or Japan, if you could call it popular at all. -- [User:Simon J Kissane]

A lot of cricketers play it during the off-season. The various grips for throwing apparently help bowlers master slower deliveries and a variety of spin. I heard Richie Benaud talk about it at great length once. GWO

A number of Australians also play or have played in the North American major and minor leagues. (Dave Nilsson and Graeme Lloyd come to mind.) -- RjLesch

True, but it's still very much a minor sport, way behind the various football codes, netball, field hockey, swimming, and so on, in both participation and spectator numbers -- Robert Merkel

Baseball does not rank in the top 10 for attendance or participation in Australia [1]. So it is incorrect for the article to claim that it is popular in Australia. I would hazard to guess that softball is more popular than baseball in Australia. So I have removed the claim. -- Popsracer 07:28, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Baseball/History of baseball? Really now. Am I the only one who thinks that a bit redundant?

Rookie mistake, perhaps. Now it's Baseball/History. (However, the History section warrants its own page, I think.)

WRT the World Series, when I had a (mostly tongue-in-cheek) crack at American arrogance for naming their domestic sporting series "World Series" or "World Championships", it was claimed that the World Series baseball was so named because the first one was originally sponsored by the "World" newspaper. Is this correct? If so, it should probably be added to the Baseball/World Series page. --Robert Merkel

No, its an urban myth, probably started by an impromptu defense to the accusations above -- GWO

Agreed. "American arrogance" is a legitimate tag here. There's a classic photo of the Chicago White Stockings of the 1880s, posing before a banner that reads "Champions of the United States", but that was the exception. --RjLesch

Well, it's the world championship now, eh? I haven't noticed the Nippon Ham Fighters or the Yomiuri Giants clamouring to be included. Trontonian

Although it does not represent a world competition, it is still called (by Major League Baseball) the World Series and the winners are referred to the World Champions. Therefore, this article must make mention of those monikers. At the same time, mention of the American arrogance should be made in the article. Kingturtle 22:12, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Why do you think it "should" be mentioned? It seems to me to be the height of POV to claim that what was probably marketing hype is a sign of a national trait of arrogance. A little stereotypical, too. And the winner is de facto the world club champion. Trontonian 22:38, 21 Oct 2003 (UTC)

The Baseball/Negro Leagues page, in my view, ought to retain the capital "L" in Leagues, since that's often how it appears in baseball literature. --RjLesch

Wasn't sure how to handle MVP and Rookie awards, since many sports have similarly-titled awards and wanted to avoid confusion. My thought is to do them as subpages (''Baseball/Most Valuable Player Award'', for example), but I know some folks don't like subpages. (The same confusion isn't there with Cy Young Award, since that's unique to baseball.) Thoughts? --RjLesch

Baseball is already subpage rich, and doesn't seem to be any the worse for it, so I like your present implementation. PS: Yankees Suck -- GWO

To the person who made the most recent edits, notice that the baseball history page already discusses the progression from the "dead ball" era to the era of the home-run hitters.

Your general concept that baseball's entry needs some explanation of why fans like it is quite correct, but I'm not convinced that all your arguments are correct. For instance, your claim that "baseball is the ultimate team game" hardly stands up to critical examination. As you have pointed out, the key battle in baseball is that between pitcher and batter. American football is far more dependant on team tactics for success (the quarterback's skills are useless without receivers), for an obvious example.

You really should attribute any views as to the merits of the game, if you can. --Robert Merkel

205.188.198.xxx wrote: 'I found the "baseball" entry too focused on rules, with too little about what makes the game distinctive to watch and play. I added some stuff -- can other Wikipedians add more on baseball?]' Of course, it's Wikipedia, so anyone can add anything, and the focus of the article is whatever we collectively make of it. I agree with Robert's observations above, especially as to the redundancy between some of the page's content and that of Baseball/History. But overall I liked the shift in focus. We should, however, preserve the Rules information somewhere. user:RjLesch

I wrote an article explaining baseball for an Australian friend of mine. I think that parts of it might be usefully incorporated into Wikipedia, but I don't want to do the incorporation. If anyone is interested in doing this, the article is available at http://www.plover.com/~mjd/misc/baseball, and I hereby give permission for its incorporation, in whole or part, into Wikipedia under the terms of the GFDL. Dominus 00:01 Nov 30, 2002 (UTC)

The stuff about "the soul of baseball" is poetic and beautifully written, but is POV (it clearly implies that the 'pedia thinks baseball is the best sport there is) and unattributed. --Robert Merkel 04:06 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The diagram is incorrect. The "home run boundary" at 95ft is only the extent of the infield dirt. Beyond that is the outfield grass, and the fences, between 290' and 400' from home plate...' -- User:GWO

Try the updated version. --Robert Merkel 13:00 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Home Run Boundary Fence is still far too near home plate. Just remove the label about the fences, and that'll be OK

Done. --Robert Merkel 23:16 24 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Can some knowledgable party add discussion of sidearm pitches? Graft 00:52, 4 Oct 2003 (UTC)

Baseball is notoriously difficult to understand for those who are not familiar with it. I don't think I lack the necessary intellectual or language abilities, but from the description in the article I failed to understand the rules or even more basically, what the game is about and how it is played. It seems that the reader is expected to have a fundamental knowledge of the game and its jargon. I would therefore like to ask a number of basic questions. (Yes, I have never seen a game of baseball, and no, I am not trying to annoy anybody, I am just honestly curious).

Play of the Game As the game starts, the home team takes the field, while the visitors come to bat. After making three outs, the visitors take the field and the home team bats.

What's an "out"? What does "batting" mean? What is the game about? Where are the players' positions?

The basic contest is always between the pitcher, who tries to throw the ball so it cannot be cleanly hit, and the batter, who tries to hit the pitched ball with a rounded bat. If the batter hits a "fair ball" into the field of play, the hitter runs to first base

What are the bases? What do they look like?

and any of his teammates who are already "on the bases" may attempt to advance to another base. There are four bases, named in counterclockwise order, first base, second base, third base and home base or home plate. Baserunners must always progress in order from first base to second, third, and then home, touching each base along the way, in order to score a run. If a baserunner is already on first base, they must try to advance or the batter will be out

What does "will be out" mean?

no two offensive players may ever stay on the same base. If the ball is caught before it bounces

What does "bounce" mean here? Bounce on the ground?

or the ball is fielded

What does "fielded" mean?

and thrown to a base before a runner arrives there, the player is out, and must return to his team's dugout.

What's the "dugout"? A team area?

The initial decision to make first base 90 feet from home plate was an inspired one; it means that no runner, no matter how fast, can beat the throw to first of a ball cleanly fielded and properly thrown to first by a fielder in proper position.

"no runner (...) can beat the throw to first of a ball cleanly fielded" What does this mean?

But if the fielder is out of position, or hesitates, or throws wide of the base, the play is often razor-close, and quite exciting. There is also an imaginary area above "home plate" (where the batter stands) between the batter's knees and chest called the "strike zone". (Actually the "strike zone" varies a good bit depending on the league level of the teams and is relatively frequently re-defined by league rules makers.) Any pitch which passes through this area is a "strike", as is any pitch at which the batter swings and misses. If a batter records 3 strikes before putting the ball in play, he is out - called a strikeout. (An exception is if the third strike evades the catcher

Who is the catcher, where does he stand, what does he do?

but this rarely occurs.) Any pitch which is not a strike is called a Ball. A batter who receives 4 balls from a pitcher may walk to first base and cannot be tagged out. This is called a "walk." A batter may also move to first base if he is struck by a pitched ball, unless he puts himself in the path of the pitch and makes no attempt to avoid being struck. In addition, if a player does make contact with the ball but does not hit a fair ball

What's a "fair ball"?

this is called a foul ball. Whether a ball hit is fair or foul is defined by two lines at a right angle, drawn to the side of the diamond, and by two poles, located to the left and the right of the outfield.

It's still not clear what a "fair ball" is.

Also, anytime the player hits the ball backward and it leaves the play area, this is called a foul. Fouls also count as strikes, unless the player has two strikes already when hitting the foul, in which case the player must go at bat for one more turn. If a foul ball is caught by a defensive player before it bounces, then the hitter is out.

Which team is the defensive one?

After three outs (a "half-inning") the roles of the fielding and hitting sides are reversed. Usually, nine innings are played.

This implicitly defines what an inning is, but an explicit explanation would be better.

The aim of the game is to score more runs than the opposing team. If both teams have scored the same number of runs at the end of 9 innings, an extra inning is added to the game. If the score remains tied, another inning is added. This process repeats until the score is no longer tied at the end of an inning. Thus, the team which hits in the second (or "bottom") half of the inning always has a chance to respond to a run scored by the team batting in the first (or "top") half. As there are tactical advantages to this, the home team is always granted the right to bat in the bottom half of the inning. In the American Major Leagues, baseball games end with tie scores only because conditions (e.g. severe weather) have made it impossible to continue play. Games in which the score is tied are not counted towards a team's game total (as technically a tie game is considered as unfinished), although statistics are retained as long as the game is of official regulation (five half innings for each team; only four for the home team if the home team is ahead). In Japan, games end after nine innings and a tie is considered honorable to both teams. Some leagues, especially youth leagues, will end a game if one team is ahead by 10 or more runs, so as not to further humiliate the other team.

There's much more that I don't understand, but if these questions could be clarified, it might be possible for a reader with no prior knowledge of the game to understand at least the very basics. I am a little afraid that my questions might look trollish to someone who's grown up with baseball, but I am just curious. Kosebamse 16:02, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

PS: The text mentioned above by Dominus (at http://www.plover.com/~mjd/misc/baseball) seems to help a lot. I am not qualified to integrate it, but it would help a lot. Thanks, Kosebamse 16:20, 26 Oct 2003 (UTC)

(Please see my above comments) - if nobody else is interested, I'll try it myself (caution again: I don't know anything about baseball). As it looks like it's going to be a major rewrite, I'll create a page Baseball/temp to work on. It would really be nice if somebody could help. Thanks, Kosebamse 10:59, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I'll certainly help, if you want to create the pages. -- User:GWO

Great, thanks a lot. I have moved the current text of baseball to the temp page, along with a copy of the the introductory text mentioned above which I think should be merged in part. So let's try to do some work there, shall we? (and I think we could continue the discussion there). Kosebamse 13:52, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Note, the strikezone definition given in that text is incorrect. It's actually "that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the hollow beneath the knee cap." in the laws of the game. User:Varitek

The definition of the strike zone has changed many times over the years, and is further confused by the universally acknowledged fact that the umpires do not follow the rule book in calling strikes. The being the case, I think the best approach is to initially describe the strike zone with some inexact phrase like "over the plate and between the shoulders and the knees" and then have a longer and more detailed section farther down that quotes the rule book, explains the real situation, and perhaps describes some of the history. That section might also mention Eddie Gaedel. Dominus

I know most people, including the umpires, don't seem to know where the strike zone is. However, wikiepedia aspires to be an encyclopaedia, not a vector of incorrect folk knowledge. Why not just give the correct zone right from the start? -- User:Varitek

It looks like the version at Baseball/temp has made much progress - perhaps it's time to move it to Baseball? There is still some stuff left to do (the rest of dominus' text should perhaps be integrated somehow, and some cleaning up, like italicizing technical terms only the first time they occur), but on the whole I guess it is now ready to be moved. What do you think? Kosebamse 16:35, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please do, or move it out of the article namespace to Talk:Baseball/temp/article --- User:Docu

Copied from talk for the rewrite page at Talk:Baseball/temp (minus duplicate text):

I have started integrating some text into the main article text and will try to move everything that looks relevant. After that it will be necessary to weed out the redundant and the irrelevant. Let's see. Kosebamse 14:17, 3 Nov 2003 (UTC)

I've changed the "Leagues" section to "Professional leagues", and fleshed it out a bit. Previously, it was just a little blurb about how there's a National League and an American League, and included an irrelevant (IMHO) bit about the designated hitter rule in the AL. We probably should include something about the DH - it's used in the American League, most minor leagues, and at the collegiate level in the United States - but that particular section was not the right place for it. -- Jim Redmond 22:12, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

It looks like this article has made much progress - perhaps it's time to move it to Baseball? There is still some stuff left to do (the rest of dominus' text should perhaps be integrated somehow, and some cleaning up, like italicizing technical terms only the first time they occur), but on the whole I guess it is now ready to be moved. What do you think? Kosebamse 16:32, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I think it would be good to move it, yes. Judging from the history of /temp, it looks like editing has slowed down, might be good to get it into the main namespace. - Hephaestos 17:01, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Is there anything substantial left to include from Dominus' text? There's still work to be done on the main article, obviously (base stealing, DH, and non-North American leagues spring immediately to mind), but otherwise I think that well is about dry. - Jim Redmond 18:00, 9 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Agree on that - Dominus' text was extremely helpful, and we can leave what's left of it in the talk page in case somebody would like to use it. And while there is of course some work left to do, methinks the rewritten text looks already quite nice (and it is certainly better that the current baseball), so I would suggest to move it soon. My proposal: wait another week and then move - what's left to do can be done irrespective of where the text resides. Kosebamse 17:35, 10 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan to me. I don't expect any big controversy about replacing the current article or moving Dominus' remaining text to the Talk page, but it's always good to offer people the chance to complain - and this next week should be chance enough. - Jim Redmond 17:40, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Could we first assimilate Dominus' text into the article before copying to baseball so the whole article whould look more coherent to baseball novice? BTW The current article misses some aspects of Major League Baseball ecomonics such as the sustainable management of Billy Beane and the Oakland Athletics and international developments of baseball, especially in Japan, Korea and Taiwan? Maybe we would write introductory paragraghs here and detailed ones in independent articles. 大将军, 都督中外诸军事 (talk) 20:38, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

But we did assimilate very much of Dominus' text already - what you see on top of baseball/temp is just the small remains of his original text. I just thought the bulk of the rewrite is done now, and what's left must not necessarily be done here on a "/temp" page. Kosebamse 22:16, 19 Dec 2003 (UTC)

If we're trying to give an encyclopedic overview of baseball with this main article, then I think a discussion of MLB economics is a little out of place. It would be better suited to its own article, perhaps covering the different styles of franchise financial management (large-market vs. small-market, the effects of a new stadium, problems unique to multinational leagues, etc.) or different proposals to close the gap between the "have" and "have not" teams.

I agree that we need more on non-North American leagues. Right now there are only cursory mentions of baseball in Asia and Latin America; if nothing else, decent intro paras with links to complete articles will help round out this overview. - Jim Redmond 21:49, 22 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I was asked to comment on whether I (being that anonymous user who keeps putting up baseball player biographies) thought this was ready to be moved to the main baseball page or not, and thought rather than alter straight up something you folks have obviously been working very hard on for some time now, I'd put my concerns and opinions here for discussion first. If you feel I'm being too discreet, I'll happily edit away. (Most of it looks good, at any rate.)

The lines from home plate to first and third bases are prolonged infinitely and are called the foul lines. The quarter of the universe between the foul lines is fair territory; the other three-quarters of the universe is foul territory.

To me, this makes it sound as though the playing area is typically infinite, rather than just theoretically infinite, as if the game is played on an endless wedge of land. Also, the way 'universe' draws upon the mathematical understanding of the word (meaning everything that applies to a given set, in this case, the set of all land area) may be ambiguous to the casual reader. I can see somebody being baffled at what the 'universe' is meant to mean.

If he succeeds in this, he gains time for running to one of the bases.

Gender neutrality, I think, is important. This isn't just a man's game.

Overall, I think the descriptions are very much biased towards Major League Baseball rather than baseball in general - which should include the kind of baseball you pick up and play with your friends, as well, whether you have nine players, a few more, or a few less. This is also important, I think, in describing the positions - the positions are not immutable. The only thing which cannot change in baseball is the batting line-up. You could, theoretically, have your 4 outfielders and 3 infielders, although typically that isn't preferred. So I think there is some room for generalization, but not so much that I think it can't be dealt with as the main page.

I've got to say, I love the bit about baseball's capacity to create heroes and goats, how pitchers are under so much pressure to make the perfect pitch, and batters only have a second to respond. It's the individual match-ups, after all, which make baseball unique and wonderful.

-- Matty j 06:30, Dec 24, 2003 (UTC)

End of copied text

The temp stuff has now been moved to the main article. --Michael Snow 17:58, 13 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The play of the game section

The play of the game section is repetative and wordy. It spends too much time focused on details of rules. Much of the info here should be relegated to other articles, as pitching was done. For example, too many ways are explained in too much detail about how to get batters and runners out. out (baseball) is a better place for that, and the general idea should be given here.

Also, alot of info about pitchers, catchers, batters, and baserunners is repeated throughout this section. I reorganized a few of the subheadings into a more logical order so we can start cutting unneeded repetitions.

In general, I think specific rules should not be covered in-depth in this article, because it detracts from the flow of the article, and will confuse people who come here to learn about baseball. Such rules should be delegated to other articles. (Those who are interested in rules and such will follow links as they are given).

One possibility for the future is to move many of the details to articles specific to batting, baserunning, fielding, etc, and give a good general feel for each part, similar to what was done for pitching.

That said, I intend no offense toward anyone who has contributed to this section. All the information is useful and valid, and will be kept at Wikipedia for certain, but this article has grown past its scope, and needs to be worked on.

—siro χ o 13:23, Aug 4, 2004 (UTC)

I'm not sure that the summary created for pitching is the best choice of what material to leave behind, but I agree that we can try splitting off some more sections into their own articles. --Michael Snow 21:08, 4 Aug 2004 (UTC)