Talk:Skiing

Sections?

why are there two history sections? that's double retarded 74.227.204.125 (talk) 08:25, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

There is only one history section, but there is a main article on history of skiing. But perhaps the material can be better organized. Regards --Erik den yngre (talk) 10:37, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Deleted

Removed: "Although snowboarding shares the general characteristics of skiing sports, it evolved from surfing and skateboarding and so is not considered a type of skiing. The posture assumed in snowboarding is a side on action whereas the skiing posture is primarily front facing." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.68.115.166 (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Snowboard evolutions

The first snurfer was made out of two skis connected together. Tom Sims and Jake Burton were both skiers. To say that skiing wasn't a big part the origin of Snowboarding is disingenuous. Snowboarding is not considered a type of skiing because it is not done on skis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.68.115.166 (talk) 21:12, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

History and independent development elsewhere

A Slovene scholar in the 17. century, member of London's Royal society, Janez Vajkard Valvasor writes (in The Glory of the Duchy of Carniola) about skiers on the Bloke plain in Carniola (now Slovenia). But according to historians and ethnologists skiing has been around there for centuries earlier and the origin is even theorised to be of an ancient Slavic tradion. But since I don't know much more about the issue i hope someone will come by and add this in the article.

Regards, Rokpok (talk) 09:24, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

I believe that skiing also developed independently in western China, perhaps before it began in Scandinavia. Unfortunately I also do not know nearly enough about it to properly edit the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.102.141.169 (talk) 06:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Rather than what you know, what is essential to Wikipedia is what you can find about it in reliable sources. Why not do some Googling or checking of library sources for that information? HiLo48 (talk) 07:15, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree with HiLo48. If you do find any sources, post them here and someone (maybe me) will add the information to the article. Alternatively, take your best shot at editing the article. Don't worry about mistakes—someone will clean them up. —EncMstr (talk) 14:54, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

While the question who invented skiing and when may not be answered in a satisfying reliability, this article could however list the earliest proofs of existence found. This could be the ancient wall paintings, or the Scandinavian ski's. However, I am highly confused where the number 600 BC has been taken from. The referenced Articles speak of 4,500 year old Scandinavian ski's (~2500 BC) and Stone-age (6.000 to 2000 BC) / 100 to 200 centuries ago (18.000 to 28.000 BC)... Clearly, one of the time data from in the sources are a result of bad translation. Hence, An updated number as well as appropriate source is needed — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.90.202.93 (talk) 16:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

See History of skiing for the level of detail, suggested above. User:HopsonRoad 18:42, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

the passage referencing a "100 century" history of skiing in China should be removed. that was the claim of a single man, a former Han Chinese competitive skier and has been soundly debunked. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:34D9:88F0:4FA:1521 (talk) 02:37, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

You need to provide the sources that "debunk" the claims. Sincerely, HopsonRoad (talk) 03:08, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

here's the paper of the scientists who dated the rock art to no more than 5250 years.

https://research-repository.griffith.edu.au/handle/10072/99460

but asking me to disprove a number that is itself unjustified and arbitrary IS NOT HOW EVIDENCE-BASED CLAIMS WORK. the "100 centuries" number not found in any literature, a man name Shan Zhaojian just pulled it out of his ass because in China 10000 is considered an auspicious number. here's some more info from the International Skiing History Association.

https://www.skiinghistory.org/news/origin-story-where-did-skiing-begin 2601:643:8B80:1A00:34D9:88F0:4FA:1521 (talk) 07:01, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

Also, somebody had already linked the paper and mentioned the age of the cave art in question IMMEDIATELY BELOW THIS COMMENT. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:34D9:88F0:4FA:1521 (talk) 09:31, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

I provided sources, and nothing? if the editors are not going to do their job, unlock the page. 2601:643:8B80:1A00:5D8A:C5D:5007:26E3 (talk) 23:07, 4 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the sources for the skiing in the Altaic-region of china. The rock pantings used in the two news articles cited have been dated to be about 4000-5250 years old (2000-3200 BCE). I also took the liberty of editing the ages in the History of skiing, but it probably needs a larger rewrite. Article in question. MacArthur Jr. (talk)

References

Breakdown of Types of Skiing

I've been selling this gear for awhile, and to get this article on track, there needs to be some agreement on terms. Example: Telemark skiing. It's been referred to as it's own class, as a variant of downhill skiing, and as a counterpart to alpine skiing. Even freestyle is presented funny. The article defines alpine skiing by it's equipment, but freestyle skiers use alpine equipment, so why is it presented different that Alpine? I'd like to re-write it all, but I'd rather have feedback before reposting and pissing everyone off Roadrunner Photog (talk) 08:36, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

There is no functional skiing wikiproject, nor any other cohesive group maintaining this article. It's mostly a disjoint group of outdoor enthusiasts, so you're not likely to run afoul somehow by pissing everyone off—as long as a reasonable attempt is made to follow the five pillars of Wikipedia, particular neutral point of view.

On the other hand, you have very few edits which presumably suggests you have little Wikipedia editing experience. You might try adding here (in the talk page) an outline, or maybe a sample section of what you intend to do. I'll be happy to give feedback, and I bet a few other editors might as well. —EncMstr (talk) 16:20, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

I've tried a little to organize the article, but need some time to find sources that are reliable to verify information. I did drop a huge article in the references section which is informative and anyone can use. Telemark is Nordic, but is in fact used going downhill and the first Alpine skiers used telemark turns, so there is overlap for the term. I'd consider freestyle an offshoot of Alpine. Lots of work to be done here. Feel free to post suggestions on the talk page as well. I'm sure you'll get a response. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:39, 20 February 2010 (UTC)

Types of skiing can be defined by equipment and by style. "Telemark" is a style used in ski touring, alpine (downhill/slalom) and even as an ingredient in ski jumping. There is no clearcut way of distinguishing these. --Erik den yngre (talk) 19:49, 26 May 2013 (UTC)

Broken link- Aspenhistory.Org - used in many places

The link in the Footnotes - Aspenhistory.Org - is broken. This source is referenced many times in this article. Is there an easy way of removing the multiple links to this source? Does it's disappearance damage the status of the article. HiLo48 (talk) 21:32, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

Luckily it was a duplicate ref so I removed all occurrences. The refs in this article need clean-up in general. Thanks for noting the problem. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:29, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Photo in Skiing for people with disabilities section

The photo shows someone using a sit ski. The caption says "A war veteran learning to snow ski on a sit-ski, using two outriggers". Many war veterans go skiing. Most don't use sit skis. A number of skiers use sit skis. Most are not war veterans.

While I have no doubt that it's a good faith caption and that the person in the photo IS a war veteran, surely that's not the point.

A more relevant caption might be "A person without the use of his legs learning to ski on a sit-ski, using two outriggers." (We also don't need to say that it's snow skiing.)

HiLo48 (talk) 23:56, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

According to the file File:Vail Veterans monoski.jpg the image is actually of a veteran, although I don't see a source. The caption should be rewritten to reflect that this is an example of the use of adaptive skiing. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:04, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

Injuries

I've just reverted a well-meaning edit by a new user.

• two references are actually just one
• references in fact are specifically regarding World Cup racers - so may not reflect a trend for general skiing
• the advice to "...asses the weather conditions and snow conditions before skiing and wear a Ski helmet..." is sensible enough but not really necessary here. What could be helpful is to quote a reference some external authoritative source - there might be something at http://www.snowsmart.co.nz for example.

Snori (talk) 04:59, 27 October 2010 (UTC)

Lodges

"Ski lodge" redirects to here, but there is no mention of lodges within the article.

Although I'm sure this isn't important. CA Jim (talk) 21:26, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It is an old redirect, dating back to August 2006. Ski lodge would make an interesting article if it focused on architecture and history. Unfortunately, it would probably be burdened with undistinguished lists of ski lodges and become a coatrack for gestating a spam farm. —EncMstr (talk) 22:23, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like a good idea, but it would take some work to tackle the subject from a fully global perspective. HiLo48 (talk) 23:58, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Merger/cleanup needed

There are now at least three articles dealing with skiing and its history. The Skiing history section on this page is overlaps and more extensive than the main article on History of skiing. In addition, the article on Ski, the device, overlaps with the present article. Appears confusing and fragmented. Regards Erik den yngre (talk) 13:57, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Please see Talk:Skiing#Structure_needed_and_redundancy_needs_pruning, below. --Cornellier (talk) 00:10, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

External link

Deleted (mistake?): "Rite of Spring-Rhode Island PBS ski history documentary by Sheri Miller-Bedau". Regards Erik den yngre (talk) 15:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

Appropriate image?

The current image at heading is perhaps representative for current skiing, but not for traditional usage of skis. Regards --Erik den yngre (talk) 11:24, 25 May 2013 (UTC)

Who was first?

Following statement removed as it is not supported by sources: "Alpine ski racing as an organised sport commenced in both America and Australia." --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:20, 1 December 2013 (UTC)

Norwegian skiing doping

Facts about Norwegian skiing: Read http://sports.yahoo.com/news/norwegian-athletes-accused-doping-book-175750004--spt.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.22.230 (talk) 10:58, 22 February 2014 (UTC)

Federico Formenti study

Seems like an interesting and relevant study, but the article should include key findings from the study, not merely stating that the study was done. But should not be in the intro.--Erik den yngre (talk) 09:28, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

" A study by [[Federico Formenti]] at the [[University of Oxford]] estimated how far and how fast our ancestors could travel on skis from about 3200 BC onward.Federico Formenti Human locomotion on snow: determinants of economy and speed of skiing across the ages. <ref name=formenti>[http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/272/1572/1561.full Human locomotion on snow: determinants of economy and speed of skiing across the ages | first = Federico | last = Formenti | first2 = Luca P. | last2 = Ardigo | first3 = Alberto E. | last3 = Minetti.</ref>"--Erik den yngre (talk) 16:53, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Deletion of Unreferenced Material

Thank you for contacting me about my revert to this article. I agree that the material might have had some relevance, however I believe that if it is to be added into the article it needs to have proper sourcing per WP:Sourcing and WP:Verify. If you would like to add the material back and add a reference to it, I will approve the inclusion. Thanks for being diligent to your editing!--Canyouhearmenow 17:17, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I was hoping the original contributor would do the job, see discussion topic above. --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:04, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

I see the conversation and I appreciate it. IF the contributor feels strongly about the inclusion and wants to put it back into the article and will give it the proper sourcing I have no problem approving the addition. Again, I too feel that it could be beneficial information but we cannot add it if there is no source to support it. Thanks for the communications! --Canyouhearmenow 18:19, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Already added with the appropriate source! --Erik den yngre (talk) 18:29, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Structure needed and redundancy needs pruning

There are so many articles about Skiing, and so much redundancy. I've taken the existing articles and propose that they relate to each other as below. This can be a guideline for removing repeating text and improving linking between articles. There's also a meta-article List of skiing topics.

Competition under the International_Ski_Federation -- not all in the Olympics

Cross-country skiing (sport)

• Cross-country skiing at the Winter Olympics
  • List of Olympic venues in cross-country skiing
• Cross-country skiing at the Winter Paralympics

ski jumping (article includes Ski-flying)

• FIS Ski Jumping World Cup
  • Four Hills Tournament
  • Nordic_Tournament
• FIS Grand Prix Ski Jumping (summer)
• FIS Ski-Flying World Championships
• Ski_jumping_at_the_Winter_Olympics
• V-style
  • Daescher technique
    • Kongsberger technique
      • Windisch technique

Nordic combined

• Nordic_combined_at_the_Winter_Olympics
• FIS_Nordic_Combined_World_Cup
  • FIS Nordic World Ski Championships 1995
  • 2007–08 FIS Nordic Combined World Cup
  • FIS Nordic World Ski Championships 2009
  • 2011–12 FIS Nordic Combined World Cup
  • List_of_FIS_Nordic_World_Ski_Championships_medalists_in_nordic_combined

alpine skiing

• Alpine skiing combined
• Downhill
• slalom +Cross-blocking
• giant slalom
• Super-G

Freestyle_skiing (needs to have Freeskiing (proposed) and ski ballet merged in)

• Mogul skiing
• Freestyle_skiing#Aerial_skiing (doesn't have its own page)
• Ski Cross
• Half-pipe
• slopestyle

Snowboard

• slopestyle (same article as for skiing)
• Snowboard cross
• Half-pipe (same article as for skiing)
• Alpine snowboarding (Parallel slalom and Parallel giant slalom)
• Big air ???

Other competition

• Para-alpine_skiing
• Paralympic cross-country skiing
• Grass_skiing
• Ski-orienteering
• Telemark skiing

Equipment

• ski + Ski manufacturing techniques
  • Elan SCX
  • Head_Standard
  • sidecut
  • Twin-tip ski
  • Skiboarding (miniskis)
  • ski skins
  • outrigger ski
• monoski (now contains merged Monoskiing)
  • snowboard, teleboard + skwal
  • Snurfer, Noboard
  • Splitboard
• ski wax + Cross-country_skiing#Kick_wax
  • swix
• ski boot
• ski helmet
• ski poles
• ski binding + Alpine_touring_binding
  • cable binding
  • spademan binding
  • Look_Integral
  • Look Nevada
• ski suit

Ski resorts

• ski resort + Après-ski
  • Ski_school
  • Night skiing
  • Glade_skiing
• Piste + Fall_line_(skiing)
• Indoor_skiing + Ski_tunnel
• snow grooming
• snowmaking (redirect from snow cannon and artificial snow)
• dry slope
• ski lift
  • Lift ticket
  • Aerial lift
    • Aerial tramway
    • Chairlift + Detachable chairlift
    • Funifor
    • Funitel
    • Gondola lift
    • Hybrid lift
    • Heliskiing
  • Surface lift
    • Cable railway + Funiculars

Technique

• Parallel turn
• snowplough turn
• Stem_Christie, stem
• Pivot_turn_(skiing)
• parallel turn
• carve turn
• jump turn

Other activities involving skis

• Snowkiting
• ski-orienteering
• Ski cross and Boardercross
• Speed_skiing
• extreme skiing
• Skijoring
• Cross-country skiing, Ski touring, Ski mountaineering, Backcountry snowboarding
• Roller skiing
• Ski_Simulators + Endless_slope
• Ski_warfare
• Biathlon

--Cornellier (talk) 14:13, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

@Cornellier: Thanks for a very timely initiative. Material on skiing should be better organized and consolidated. Perhaps the main article Skiing should give main points from all these topics with reference to in-depth articles? Some degree of hierarchical structure may be imposed on these topics, although topics style (nordic vs alpine) and equipment are more interwoven, because equipment is very dependent on style. Perhaps detailed discussion of equipment should be done in in-depth articles on style? --Erik den yngre (talk) 17:01, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

@Erik den yngre: yes I'm working on a few mergers right now e.g. Lift ticket + Wicket_(ski) and just consolidating some content. Great idea, once the above hierarchy makes sense, move it into the skiing article, in prose form, to give an overview. --Cornellier (talk) 00:09, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

@Cornellier: Excellent. In think something like this should be the hierarchy for style/competition (alpine and nordic are the two main branches):

• Alpine
  • Slalom
  • Giant slalom
  • Super-G
  • Downhill
• Nordic
  • Ski jumping
    • Ski flying (type of ski jumping)
  • Nordic combined
  • Cross-country

Biathlon is usually not regarded as a "nordic" discipline (although basically cross-country), biathlon has separate championships. The same I think is true for skijoring. Various styles of recreational skiing should perhaps be treated independently as these are not within an institutional structure (associations and championships), although terminology and technique overlap. --Erik den yngre (talk) 07:52, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

thanks, updated above --Cornellier (talk) 02:44, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

Comments on structure

@Cornellier: Various types of recreational skiing may be difficult to distinguish precisely, unlike competitive skiing under FIS etc. I think the hierarchy should primarily take competitive skiing as a starting point. And I don't see any difference between ski touring and ski mountaineering, perhaps merge to one article? Back country skiing is also a type of ski touring. --Erik den yngre (talk) 12:06, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

Telemark skiing

@Cornellier: Under Nordic skiing you changed Telemark from discipline to turning technique. For now, that is OK, but as far as I know there are specific competitions in Telemark skiing. For the future, I think we need some criteria for "discipline", perhaps competitions organized by a major governing body such as FIS or Olympics? --Erik den yngre (talk) 10:53, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

honestly, I'm confused about telemark, if you have any more suggestions just jump in. --Cornellier (talk) 23:12, 17 November 2014 (UTC)

@Cornellier: In the context of competitive skiing, I think Telemark can be regarded as a discipline, while in the general skiing context (skiing as leisure activity etc), Telemark is a turning technique that can be used in the backcountry (ski touring), on slopes, in ski-jumping and in cross-country. Seems like the Telemark skiing is a bit misleading claiming that Telemark "combines" Alpine and Nordic elements. Alpine style with parallel skis was in Norway called the Christiania turn (Christiania is present day Oslo), as opposed to Telemark turn. Mathias Zdarsky later developed a more sturdy binding that marked the beginning of "Alpin" as a separate technique. --Erik den yngre (talk) 10:41, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Cat skiing

   Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cat skiing attracted discussion only from 3 editors and during the first 2 hours in '05; the hope was "the main skiing article it is more likely to attract related info about helicopter and other backcountry skiing to itself". I've switched the Rdr from the accompanying article to Snowcat skiing, which it appears should have been done 6 years ago. (If you never look at the "What links here" for a topic -- especially the Rdr's that link to it -- you're wrong to imagine you're serving well those who in good faith visit the topic's page.)
--Jerzy•t 06:59, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I propose it be merged with ski lift. Cornellier (talk) 03:00, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Agree. Make it a section in "ski lift" article, as a special type of ski lift.--— Erik Jr. 22:53, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Done. Cornellier (talk) 00:37, 30 September 2015 (UTC)

"Mode of transport"

I agree that skiing can and should be described as a mode of transport, the "sub-article" on cross country skiing has a paragraph on this aspect of skiing so I think it is warranted. --Erik den yngre (talk) 16:06, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

History

How come this article does not mention something about the evolution of skis? For example powder skis are a recent phenomenon, back in the day people could not ride powder like today, and outlining some of the tech used by the industry would be good Soroushh (talk) 02:28, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

History of skis is covered in Ski article and powder skis are talked about in Ski geometry article. Rodney Baggins (talk) 11:44, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Contradictory dates and timelines

Dates and timelines in the various wiki page is on skiing are contradictory! Somebody needs to get the facts right and do the math! Mmgyver1 (talk) 01:23, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Mmgyver1 Thank you for your post, here. Can you site some examples of concern? HopsonRoad (talk) 04:08, 1 December 2019 (UTC)