Talk:Left-hand path and right-hand path/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Isn't there a book by Fernando Sánchez-Dragó titled El camino de la mano izquierda?

Who makes this distinction? Bacchiad 05:27, 13 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Meaning of LHP

Etu Malku (talk) 18:36, 17 October 2021 (UTC) Western LHP is indeed different than its Eastern counterpart. More importantly, the LHP or RHP for that matter, has really nothing to do with Magic. It's a practical philosophy, something you embrace and put into practice.

There is a lot wrong in this statement: "Left-handed path practitioners descend towards union with the divine to obtain Godhood status, with God-like powers of their own, having reunited with the ultimate divine source-energy; then once there, taking one more step separating from that divinity, out of this creation into a new creation of their own making, with themselves as the sole divinity of the new universe, apart from the previous creation." First it's simply 'Left-Hand Path' practitioners, Left-Handed implies something else. The LHP does not seek union with anything divine, in fact it is just the opposite, the LHP seeks to separate from what is believed to be divine (by the RHP). This separation is part of the process of LHP Apotheosis. There are no 'godlike' powers involved either. I understand this concept is from Dr. Karlsson's book, which I have read and know Dr, Karlsson very well, but the concept is centered more on the Qliphothic Tree of Daath and the Thelemic idea of the Black Brother, than it has to with the LHP in general.

Note that Crowley's idea of the LHP no longer fits with today's understanding. To Crowley, a Black Brother of the LHP was a failure in his religious system.

The "Also See"& "External Links" sections contain Eastern views on the word 'left hand path' and have nothing to do with Western LHP. Where are all the real LHP Practitioners, Organizations, & Authors? Etu Malku (talk) 18:36, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

I think this article is a little off -- the "left hand path" has nothing to do with Satanism and stuff of that nature. I'm working on too many other things to get to this, but someone needs to do some serious research here because this article is all wrong and completely misses the point of what the LHP means. --DanielCD 19:55, 14 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I disagree DanielCD, this doesn't need to be more than a paragraph on the origins of the term, an short explanation of left hand myths, and perhaps a line or two about it's continued usage in modern occultism. Perhaps someone could move that information to left hand path religions and link to left hand path, or not. db 10:15, Jul 15, 2004 (UTC)

I have made some changes to this article. They are LEGIT. Understand that LHP has a diffrent meaning in the east than in the west. If additions are made, please be clear on whether what you have o say pertains to the eastern or the modern western (the ToS or the ONA for example) meanings. ~August.

It's good. You guys prolly know more than I do on this subject. My comment was based more on a gut feeling than facts anyway. Thanks for the responses. --DanielCD 01:02, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)

This is still a page showcasing the opinions of the few. I seriously doubt your opinions as stated, regarding what is a "left hand path" religion and what is a "right hand path" religion can be called objective. This is tantamount to writing the good and evil pages as lists of things that you personally view as "good" and "evil". I must reiterate my opinion that this page should contain only a brief definition of left-hand path at has been used in ancient times, and is used (albeit rarely) now, and a history of how the left hand came to be associated with evil, as that is the view commonly held by ancients (the idea of left hand meaning free will came much later), and if you insist on this page existing, move it to Left-Hand Path Religions, and start your article with a disclaimer announcing the Left-Hand Path as a mystical belief that is not at all objective or factual, but rather a matter of faith. Then you can explain how this one particular religion identifies itself with various other faiths, and labels the ones it doesn't identify with as Right-Hand Path. If I'm wrong, please let me know. db 19:39, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

The article does give the ancient definition. ~August

Quoting from this article, without regard to context or authors, "In the west the established beliefsystems are almost exclusively Right-Hand Path." typo aside, this is not fact. what are the established belief systems, and whom has decided upon the criteria for defining "established"? Who is defining them as Right-Hand Path systems? Again, my understanding of left hand path and right hand path, is a rather outdated metaphor for choosing between evil or good, like the terms "black hat" and "white hat" pertaining to sorcery or hacking. This page should define it as such, and offer an alternate definition of "A particular religion, encompassing the beliefs of several faiths." Linking to Left-Hand Path Religions is fine with me. This article is not only subjective opinion, but rather inflammatory subjective opinion and pigeonholing. db 19:46, Jul 22, 2004 (UTC)

What is meant by established should be obvious. Taoism is not established in the west for example, while most branches of christianity are. That they are RHP is judged by the criterias given in the article. Your understanding of LHP and RHP is wrong, the paths does not depend on what is viewed as good and evil at all. LHP is all passive, inner directed, the easy way (kundalini is the "easy", "fast" way to enlightment ...killing someone with poison like a ninja is also the easy way); there is no emphasis on honour, strife or duty. RHP is active, it requires deeds, striving for success, work and study. LHP is concieving of the "idea" of how electricity works, RHP is building miles of wires and powerstations for the sake of civilisation. A note on black hats: The Yellow hats are RHP; they obey to collective rules like celibacy (they aren't allowed to have a family because the people are not willing to support a lama AND his family), they spend lots of time studying texts and writing, they work and strive for the people. Red hats and black hats are allowed to have children and wifes, they have much less obligations to society; they are poeple who happen to be able to do yogas. Then they are the naljorpas and their kind who have no ties to anything. ~August

This article is actually much more NPOV than Right-Hand Path. This isn't good, but that one's worse. Bacchiad 02:28, 23 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Tantra, however, is not limited to India or Japan. It is also practiced by various sects in Tibet and by Tatar Lamaists (defacto Shamanists). Kargyu and Nyingma, along with Tatar Lamamism is definitely LHP because it is focused on the inner (not outer behavior) and inner knowledge gained via the fast path (Vajrayana), gained through the flesh itself "all things are known through the flesh." LHP means yin; RHP means yang. The entire idea of "taboo breaking" fails within cultures that do not have silly taboos against eating meat or drinking alcohol or other things that are legal according to the actual secular laws of the land. Breaking regular laws result in imprisonment, nothing more and nothing necessarily spiritual or religious. Tatar Lamaists furthermore give the status if "living god" (Khutukhtu) to persons such as Temujin (Jenghis Khan) and Amursana - both of whom were great warriors and conquerers, yet Tatar Lamaism is lumped in with Buddhism by some.

The following text is from http://www.geocities.com/satanicreds/lhp-rhp.html and is copyright by me, T. Jantsang (here is hoping wikipedia doesn't note it's on my own website again and scream "copyright violation."

quote: The “Encyclopedia of Buddhism,” which also defines Naga Shivaism, something much older than Buddhism, has these definitions as paraphrased below.

First of all, the terms LHP, and RHP, are not Western, and certainly not Christian. Neither ever designated good or evil since good or bad people can be following either path. The two paths aren't at odds with each other. Both paths are ways to Wisdom: the difference is not in the goal but in the method. In other words, LHP is more of a nomadic path, it is a lot more flowing and chaotic, unpredictable; LHP people are in flux just like “life” and “conditions” are in flux. The way people living in a western society do things can show the path – LHP people tend to do things, very ordinary things, differently from the way RHP people tend to do things. So one is on these paths - it is not like someong "get on" these paths.

The RHP is the way of Yang. The LHP is the way of Yin. Like Yin and Yang, you cannot separate the two. Yin/Dark/Receptive. Yang/Light/Active. To try to separate them or oppose them is an error.

But this is the danger of the Lie or Internal Error. . . when Right and Left become something that are against each other, then the RHP is a false path, speaking usually about a false Light (usually "out there"), and you are hearing a false doctrine. It doesn’t matter if RHP types say it or if LHP types say it: they are wrong if they try to oppose these paths. They are not opposed. LHP is felt (not thought, but felt) to be frightening and evil by some people who think they are RHP. This misconception, within a person, is the striving, craving for the Light Alone rebelling to exist without the Dark Parent from whence it came. That is truly self-destructive... Usually, people who do this just don’t have a clue what these terms are defining. They might see it opposed because they themselves are opposed to their own shell-ish non-being. In otherwords, they know this Lie and Falsehood through their own peculiar flesh. Either that, or they are prone to believe scholars that either don't have any understanding of "shadow language" employed in these traditions, or they are focusing on cultures that have silly taboos in addition to actual laws of the land. (EG, Hindus can't eat beef - but Moslems living in India can and do 0eat beef - therefore, it's not illegal. It's just a Hindu taboo.)

Hinayana Buddhism (Little Path Buddhism) is the closest Buddhist sect to what Siddhartha actually taught. Its emphasis is on the 8-fold noble path, and other things typically associated with early Buddhist practice. It is very concerned with rules, laws, and proper behavior: etiquette! While it is a path of Wisdom, it is not a path of Knowing. Of course, those on this path are not considered able to know otherwise they wouldn't be on that path! It is not their fate to be on any other path.

Mahayana Buddhism (Great Path Buddhism) replaced Theravada. Nagarjuna is considered the successor to the Buddha by the followers of this path. Mahayana is more of a path of knowing, "all knowing happens directly through the whole body." The person who seeks out this path seeks it out because he is unable to know through the body directly, but he is able to understand with the mind.

Vajrayana (Vajra Path, Lightning Path, Direct Path), or Tantrik "Buddhism," is the path of instant, direct, and specifically physical-body knowledge and is more rightly called either Padma Sambhava-ism or just Shiva-ism. Strictly speaking, in terms of Theology, it is not Buddhism. Herein is the tradition of Kundalini Yoga, the Siddhi, Tumo, Phova, Milam, the Chod, etc. and other recognizably Black Magical practices. Those who are on this path are there because they can do Vajrayana and attain Samadhi without thinking about it (literally). In fact, they do it without "wanting" to. That's the real key. . . they "do through active non doing." Vajrayana is totally LHP - but this does not mean that those from whole cultures that are Vajrayanists don't have fun or do normal things. (This has nothing to do with the invention called "Tantrik Sex," nor does it have a thing to do with breaking sexual taboos. These notions are totally modern, Western inventions of sex clubs.)

Mahayana is LHP in the sense that the reason for its existence is that it is a path of knowing from the inner method even if it takes slow, methodical steps to this knowledge. Mahayana is also RHP because it is the doing of deeds that help the person "acquire" this knowledge.

Now. . . here is the important Truth. There is no conflict between these paths if they are True; they are yin/yang and exist together and this embodies real stratification in the sense of people naturally working at their own abilities. I.e., what you are good at, naturally comes easy! Because of this, there is always RHP in LHP, and always LHP in RHP. There is the "Being" of the receptive LHP and then the "Becoming" which is the active RHP. There is the Knowledge of the LHP that leads to the deeds of the RHP. Everything is Yin and Yang. Passive Idea; Active Deed. Like Sat-Being and Tan-Becoming.

To people at inner peace with themselves, the Dark Paths are Peaceful. They are beautiful, soft, and solitary. . . This does not mean they are hermits; not at all. There is nothing busy or hectic about the Dark Paths. They are totally inner. When a person has an inner core which has been compromised by cultural traditions or something else, the best they can come up with is a self-overcoming where they try, oftentimes in vain, to "fix" their broken selves. In neurological terms, they lack the "organic I." These people cannot know.

There are certain odd cults in India that "break taboos" and call them the "Five M's" as if this is LHP. This is due to a gross misunderstanding of the Tantras by these cults - and the same misunderstanding can be placed on the heads of some scholars that think that this is all there is to LHP and RHP. Many societies don't have silly taboos; but all societies have laws and if you break the law you end up in jail or executed.