Talk:Trinidad and Tobago

Sea level rise and climate change

We have an slow-motion edit war going on between Arthur Rubin (talk · contribs) and an anon, neither of which seem to have attempted to discuss the issue. The text in question is:

Per an analysis by Robert Nicholls and Sally Brown of the University of Southampton cited a The New York Times Upfront 2011 article, Trinidad and Tobago is ranked the tenth most endangered nation due to flooding from climate change.<ref>http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BUE/is_5-6_144/ai_n58473630 A sinking feeling: why is the president of the tiny Pacific island nation of Nauru so concerned about climate change? [[New York Times Upfront]]. Find Articles (2011-11-14). Retrieved on 2012-05-30.</ref>

How about no more reverts, by either party, until this is discussed? Guettarda (talk) 13:00, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

First pass suggests that the source supports the addition, so I'm not sure about this edit summary. Obviously an important step is finding the original work by Nicholls and Brown that Marcus Stephen cites. Guettarda (talk) 13:12, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Of course, whether this belongs here is another issue entirely. Guettarda (talk) 13:20, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

See Talk:Regional effects of global warming#Include Upfront (magazine) endangered oceanic island nations ranking. The information should not be in the article without being credited to President Marcus Stephen of Nauru unless someone finds the report and reads it. Then, we could credit Nicholls and Brown, but it still wouldn't necessarily be reliable. It the present state, if it were clear that Stephen was quoting the report, we could say that President Stephen reports that Nicholls and Brown, in a study at the University of Southampton, reported that .... The other report mentioned at Talk:Regional effects of global warming#Add listing of cities at risk? should be credited to OECD, rather than being left as considered "reliable". — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:25, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that helps a lot. Hopefully there's some chance of a resolution there. Guettarda (talk) 19:39, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Whether it belongs here is another question, but I wouldn't remove it from the article if a reliable source could be found, without some indication of consensus. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 13:30, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Spanish in Trinidad and Tobago?

Trinidad and Tobago is quite close to Venezuela. Therefore, how much widely is Spanish spoken or understood in Trinidad and Tobago? Could you add some information on this in the language section? Are there any official statistics? --ALE! (talk) 14:33, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

As you can see on this external article, Spanish speakers are a distinct minority behind English, Hindi and even German. A quick visit through the archives of this very talkpage will show past discussion on the "Spanish as a First Foreign Language Initiative" that appears to have died. (✉→BWilkins←✎) 17:29, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

I have also found a pdf document made by a company "aligned" with the Ministry of Trade, Industry and Investment last year that lists Spanish as the second (Though not official) language. http://www.investt.co.tt/publications/investt-guide-to-investing-in-tt.pdf

I'm assuming that that is in line with the Government giving Spanish the status of "First Foreign Language" and their plan of increasing Spanish fluency (Which is minorly touched upon in the document) and possibly installing it as the countries second official language. 99.38.186.92 (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

The intent of the "Spanish as a first foreign language" is to increase trade within the Spanish-speaking areas that are close neighbours. For trade purposes, therefore, Spanish may indeed be a semi-official language. However, until the constitution of the country specifies dual-languages, it's still not an official second language. The wording "first foreign language" was chosen on purpose ES&L 14:47, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I wasn't trying to suggest that it was an official language, just that it is promoted in certain levels. Though, to answer the person above my previous post, the "Spanish as a First Foreign Language Initiative" does not seem to be dead, as the Secretariat for the Implementation of Spanish still formally exists as a division of the Tertiary Education and Skills Training and acknowledges the initiative on the Government's website (http://test.gov.tt/Programmes/SIS/SISOverview.aspx). But no, Spanish currently carries no formal status as an official language in the country. 99.38.186.92 (talk) 15:02, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

In regards to BWilkins's statement about whether or not the Spanish as a First Foreign Language Initiative is dead, I have gotten in contact with a moderator from the Secretariat for the Implementation of Spanish's official Facebook page and this is what I was told:

Good morning. Yes, this is the official page for the Secretariat for the Implementation of Spanish and the SAFFL initiative is the purpose for which the SIS was created so as long as we are still functioning, the initiative will be ongoing.

I will link to the conversation if anyone would like, but I'm sure this, along with what I posted above, should be proof enough that the Initiative is still going on and is not 'dead'. 99.38.186.92 (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Slavery

I'm not sure if this makes sense: "...resulted in the abolition of slavery in 1833 via the Slavery Abolition Act 1845". It may need rewording or to be tweaked some way. At the moment it suggests slavery was abolished by an act 12 years into the future. I'm sure there is an obvious explanation that would clarify this. Tigerman2005 (talk) 09:36, 31 December 2012 (UTC)

A bit of clarification is needed here by better researchers than me. During the American war of independence, slaves who found themselves with the British were offered; to fight for the British, or have freedom in Trinidad and Tobago. If the former slaves were offered freedom in Trinidad, how could the rest of the colony be subject to a slaving culture ? 1833 laws were not the start of universal abolition. Stuff was being implemented 50 years before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.156.211 (talk) 00:54, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Should demonyms "Trinidadian" and "Tobagonian" link to Indo-Trinidadian/Tobagonian page?

Currently, on the right pane, the listed demonyms "Trinidadian" and "Tobagonian" both link to the page describing Indo-Trinidadian and Tobagonians. Should this be the case?

Indo-Trinidadians and Tobagonians make up 40% of the population, while there are pages describing Afro-Trinidadians and Tobagonians (37.5% of the population) and Chinese Trinidadians and Tobagonians as well. Why choose one ethnic group in the country over the others for this link? Perhaps there was a reason behind this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rua2006 (talk • contribs) 23:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)

Removal from info box

I removed the largest settlement from the info box. As I read the directions for the info box, that entry should exist only if the largest settlement is not a city.

I've asked for clarification [Template_talk:Infobox_country#Use_of_largest_settlement_when_cities_exist|here]--SPhilbrick(Talk) 16:05, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Help

The article looks very bad right now. Somebody please help us. Călușaru' (talk) 15:56, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

 Fixed Dru of Id (talk) 16:15, 4 June 2013 (UTC)

Human history

I've noticed a bit of a fight over whether the history section should be called "human history" or just "history". History, without qualifiers, usually means human history, and has been the standard usage here for many, many years. In addition, this keeps our article consistent with the standard template for country articles. Guettarda (talk) 23:30, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Trinidad and Tobago/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: ComputerJA (talk · contribs) 19:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Review

Hi, I'll be reviewing this article in the next 1-5 days. Thanks in advance for your work on this one! ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 19:18, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

Decision

I am going to have to fail this nomination. There are entire paragraphs and sections that are unsourced, which makes me wonder if the information is original research. There are many [Citation needed] tags that need to be addressed as well. These are primarily my main concerns with the article. In addition, some of the sources are good while others are incomplete (i.e. missing the publisher/author; lacking a date; etc.) The article has great potential, and I'm sure you can submit it back to the GA process once the concerns are addressed, although I would highly recommend for you to ask for someone to copyedit the material and take a good look at it first (the GA backlog can take a few months, so its better to have perfectly ready before submitting). Thanks for your interest in Trinidad and Tobago and for your work so far. Please contact me if you have any questions/comments. ComputerJA (☎ • ✎) 07:18, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

Two contentious edits

There seems to be a bit of edit-warring going on by a new, but not so new editor.

1. They seem to misunderstand the purpose of the largest_city option in the infobox. It's common to use this to delineate the largest municipal structure, whether city, borough, etc. As such, Chaguanas still meets this definition - and this has been discussed more than once.

1. They have removed an image, twice - the second time with the bizarre (and wholly WP:OR) that it shows "racial segregation" (even referring to apartheid in their edit-summary). No. The entire article discusses the ethnic backgrounds - and mix - of the entire T&T population. To specify that someone was the "first" of a specific background to be PM or President, or Chief Justice is actually a notable fact, even in such pan-cultural country.

As the editor steadfastly refuses to discuss their edits - even after multiple prompts - I'm starting the discussion here. None of the above edits should be repeated without new WP:CONSENSUS based on this discussion. ES&L 12:17, 11 January 2014 (UTC)

1. Another editor pointed out that San Fernando should be there instead of Port-of-Spain after which I changed the largest city to San Fernando. The information regarding Chaguanas as the largest city is incorrect. Based on the 2011 census (page 26), if you are using population, land area or even population density, Chaguanas is not the largest. Chaguanas is not a city in Trinidad and Tobago and if you want to say that it is the largest based on size of municipal structure (which has to be definitively stated as being the largest above all others by means of reputable evidence), putting Chaguanas based on that merit is completely arbitrary.

2. With regards to the image being removed as per your comment of someone being the “first” of a specific background, then that premise – which is opinionated – should be applied across the board i.e. The “first” Afro-Trinidadian Prime Minister, the “first” Afro-Trinidadian President, the “first” Caucasian Member of Parliament, the “first” Member of Parliament with dual citizenship and so on. It is quite odd that Basdeo Panday would be singled out as the “first” Indo-Trinidadian Prime Minister but no picture or mention was made of former President Noor Hassanali as being the “first” Indo-Trinidadian President. That "fact" of Basdeo Panday being the “first” Indo-Trinidadian Prime Minister is not notable, does not add value to the article, insidiously pushes a racist agenda and is a matter of opinion. Intentium (talk) 02:03, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• Just to clarify, I made the suggestion of San Fernando in an effort to engage you in discussion, Intentium. Fair enough you changed it to my suggestion but the important thing is to discuss. To be honest I agree with ES&L, because the definition of a city is a very broad one. Even if there are only two officially recognised cities in Trinidad, it doesn't mean that other large town/municipalities won't commonly be referred to as cities. It is perfectly acceptable for the article to say Chaguanas is the largest city, especially given that it has a significantly larger population than either Port of Spain or San Fernando. That said, there is nothing wrong with you asserting that Chaguanas is not a city BUT please use the talkpages to convince us of your assertion before you revert any edits. The best thing you could do is find us some reliable sources which support your assertion. One particular policy to note is WP:ONUS which states that "burden of evidence lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and is satisfied by providing a reliable source that directly supports the material i.e. the onus is on you (Intentium) to show us that Chaguanas shouldn't be listed as the largest city. Green Giant (talk) 04:14, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• It's only YOUR belief that it's "racist" - and smart people do not use that word where no such racism exists. It's non-useful rhetoric. Are you seriously trying to say "because we don't have a picture of X, we shouldn't have a picture of Y?" I'm not sure what school of logic that comes from. Maybe it's simply because we just don't have a usable photo of the other person. ES&L 10:27, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

• I have quoted the reliable sources i.e. the 2011 census (page 26) in my response. The figures clearly show that Chaguanas is not the largest “city”, yet YOU assert that it is when clearly, it isn’t. The population of Chaguanas is 83,516, surpassed by Tunapuna/ Piarco (215,119), Couva/ Tabaquite/ Talparo (178,410) , San Juan/ Laventille (157,258), Diego Martin (102,957), Princes Town (102,375) Penal/ Debe (89,392) and Siparia (86,949). Going by land area, Chaguanas which is 57 km² loses once again to Sangre Grande (927 km²), Mayaro/ Rio Claro (814 km²), Couva/ Tabaquite/ Talparo (723 km²), Princes Town (620 km²) Tunapuna/ Piarco (510 km²), Siparia (495 km²), Penal/ Debe (246 km²), San Juan/ Laventille (239 km²) and Diego Martin (126 km²). Using population density (per square kilometre) as a metric, Chaguanas (1,416) loses yet again to the City of Port-of-Spain (3,090), the Borough of Arima (2,801) and the City of San Fernando (2,570). If you are going by a single town, Diego Martin is the largest. If you are going by land area, Mayaro/ Rio Claro is the largest. If you are going by population density, Port-of-Spain is the largest. If you are going strictly by largest “city”, San Fernando is the largest. You have not defined what are the criteria to label Chaguanas as the largest city and are merely selling the vague generalization of “municipal structure”. It is YOUR opinion which is being asserted that Chaguanas is the largest city whereas the findings of the 2011 census proves otherwise.

• With regards to your second response, to give such a feeble excuse by saying, “Maybe it's simply because we just don't have a usable photo of the other person” is absolutely ridiculous. It is unacceptable to claim that you don’t have a usable photo of a past President, Prime Minister or any other dignitary for that matter which are freely available over the internet, by doing a quick search. As far as smart people are concerned where no such racism exists, that is why I used the word “insidiously”. As a Trini reading the article and being all too familiar with Trini culture and politics, to put a picture of Basdeo Panday as being the first Indo-Trinidadian Prime Minister but not putting up other past Prime Ministers, Presidents and outstanding citizens who were far more influential in the development of Trinidad & Tobago politics, is perceived as having an Indo-Supremacist agenda. The article doesn’t even state who was our first Prime Minister or President but is quick to point out Basdeo Panday so many years later, which is irrelevant now as it was then. If you are showing political history by plopping the picture of Basdeo Panday in the middle of an article, then the article should show previous Prime Ministers before him since we gained independence. It is not adding value by just throwing it in there and then disguising it as some “notable" fact, when it is merely a “meagre” fact.

Racism doesn’t need to be out in the open if one can read between the lines. That is why I used the word “insidiously”. If you are peddling your “notable" facts, peddle them across the board. Intentium (talk) 17:37, 12 January 2014 (UTC)

References

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Trinidad and Tobago is a small twin island country in the Caribbean Sea located in the South America continent. Trinidad was a Spanish colony from the arrival of Christopher Columbus in 1498. Many people from Trinidad including my family said that Christopher Columbus did not discover Trinidad, the island was already established and there were Spanish people already on the island before Christopher Columbus had arrived. Trinidad was settled by the French colonist and Tobago had changed hands between the British, French and Dutch. Trinidad and Tobago also obtained their independence from the British empire in 1962 and became a republic in 1976. Other important key that makes up the Trinidadian culture is their food, dance and festivities. Although Trinidad created the limbo, the way Trinidadians dance today is not by going under a pole. “Whining” essentially is the most popular dance in the Caribbean and is performed by both men and women. You can whine to any type of soca song that plays because it’s all about rhythm. Trinidadians food is also a main part of their culture. Trinidad and Tobago’s national dish is, “Pelau, crab and callaloo”. Pelau is a rice dish that is mixed with peas and other ingredients you can add as well. Callaloo is a greenish leaf vegetable which is amaranth or tarco. One of the main things Trinidad and Tobago is known for is their festivities. Their biggest festivities of them all is Carnival. The musical competition is a big part of Carnival; groups tend to win a lot of money. If you are named Calypso Monarch, it is truly one of the biggest honors in the country of Trinidad. Most of these competitions are aired on T.V and along with this honor comes with a nice trophy, a car and 2,000,000 Trinidad money. Depending on how good you are, you can possibly even get endorsements and a contract. Before the two-day carnival kicks off there is one main event that is held before the parade gets started which is called “J’ouvert Morning” but it is pronounce “Juvay morning”. J’ouvert morning is a large street party that is very popular all over the Caribbean. In some of the French based creole languages of the Caribbean, J’ouvert means “dawn” or “daybreak”. Traditionally the celebration involves calypso/soca bands and their followers dancing along the streets. The festival starts well before dawn, and ends a few hours after sunrise. Carnival was introduced to Trinidad by French settlers in 1783 which was a time of slavery. The origin of street parties associated with J’ouvert coincide with emancipation from slavery from 1838. Kmayers1 (talk) 23:10, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Musical instrument

I take issue with the line:

"It is the only musical instrument to be created in the 20th century."

What about the theremin or the mellotron? It's just blatantly not true. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.171.0.4 (talk) 17:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Ukebert (talk) 19:16, 30 October 2017 (UTC) - I have deleted this line. The reference says "major instrument", but even that is highly debatable, given that the electronic instrument revolution is a 20th century phenomenon. I would argue that the electric guitar is a distinct instrument from the acoustic guitar and I'd wager that it is even more popular than the steel drum.

T&T's continent

Why is T&T considered part of North America despite being much closer to South America?? Is this an example of a situation where culture is preferred over geography?? Any other countries questions like this are often asked about?? Georgia guy (talk) 01:06, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

That's a popular question. The basic consideration is that the Caribbean is one region, and when you divide the Americas into two superordinate regions only (north and south) you have to decide for one. This leads to scientists and international organizations counting the Caribbean towards North America, including T&T (and, for example, the ABC Islands) although T&T is located on the South American continental shelf. It hurts your brain, but it makes sense in a statistical way. Since the Caribbean is not counted towards Central America, the only approach to bypass this allocation is to divide the Americas into three regions: North (including Central), South, and the Caribbean as a self-contained region. We here at Wikipedia don't put up rules though, we just follow science and the media. Does that help? Kind regards, Grueslayer 06:12, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I do think this should be addressed in the article because it's potentially confusing for the article to state in one part that geologically T&T is located in South America, yet to have a template at the bottom listing it as a North American country. 136.159.160.5 (talk) 17:17, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Business culture

The source cited for the section re: drug cartels (Figueira, Daurius. Cocaine and Heroin Trafficking in the Caribbean: The Case of Trinidad and Tobago, Jamaica and Guyana. iUniverse Inc. p. 232.) is a single self-published title that cites no sources itself. The author has defended it as "pioneer research," but with no mention of the origin of his conjecture. This is not an academic work, and not a reliable source, and as such, the section should be rewritten. Also note that this book does not have a page 232.

this article needs more references

There are many paragraphs without citations throughout the article. Specifically, in the following sections:

• Geography (one reference)
• Geology (no references)
• Climate (one ref)
• Prehistory (none)
• Spanish settlement (2 paragraphs without refs)
• Economic depression (one ref)
• Politics (2 paragraphs without refs)
• Political culture (no refs)
• Foreign relations (no refs)
• Military (no refs)
• Administrative divisions (no refs)
• Economy (3 paragraphs without refs)
• Education (no refs)
• Culture (2 paragraphs without refs)
• Olympic Sports (only 1 ref)
• Cricket (no refs)
• Other sports (no refs)

Please do not remove the maintenance tag until the above items have been addressed. Thanks. —howcheng {chat} 16:33, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

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Health in Trinidad and Tobago

It might be a good idea to add a section about health. Here is a reference that discusses malaria in the country: "Deyalsingh: 5 imported cases of malaria in T&T for 2019". www.looptt.com. 16 May 2019. Retrieved 2019-06-12. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 22:23, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

Science and Tech

Interesting section, but does such a detailed overview really belong on the main page? Might be best to spin off into a separate article Sdrawkcab (talk) 12:09, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Ethnicity in infobox - "Indian" vs. "East Indian"

The infobox section for ethnic groups gives the largest ethnicity as "Indian" with a link to the article Indo-Trinidadian and Tobagonian. I thought this was potentially confusing or ambiguous, because in the context of the Western Hemisphere, "Indian" can also be used to refer to the indigenous peoples of the Americas. Here, the indigenous group is labeled "Indigenous Amerindian," which is precise but not necessarily clear, because it's not necessarily a widely known or used term (see the relevant section in the article Native American name controversy). Many readers, particularly those familiar with North American English conventions and the demographics of many other Caribbean countries, will initially assume that "Indian" means indigenous.

I changed the infobox to say "East Indian (South Asian)" and retain the link to the Indo-Trinidadian and Tobagonian article. User:Arimaboss removed the word "East", with the edit summary: "Outdated term". (A subsequent edit also removed "South Asian".) I don't doubt that this term is less common than it once was. But I think it's appropriate here. As I noted in my edit summaries, "East Indian" is the actual term used in the cited source, the T&T census of 2011. (Here.) So the term has official status for statistical purposes in T&T. Additionally, it's the most accurate term, because as far as I can tell, the T&T statistical office does not define what "East Indian" means; it may well include people whose ancestry is from South Asia but who are not considered "Indian" in the sense of the modern state or nationality. Notably, the Indo-Trinidadian and Tobagonian article explicitly includes "other parts of South Asia" in its definition.

Additionally, the East India (disambiguation) page includes the following:

East Indian may also refer to:

...

• East Indians, a term used in North America to refer to South Asians in North America, in order to distinguish them from Native Americans who are sometimes referred to as Indians
• Indian Americans, residents of the United States descended from migrants from India
• Indo-Canadians, residents of Canada descended from migrants from India
• Indo-Caribbeans, residents of Caribbean countries descended from migrants from India

So it does not seem to be an outdated term in this context. To the extent it is unclear or unfamiliar, the parenthetical South Asian should clarify the issue without forcing the reader to click through to the linked article. (See, e.g., Indian_Americans#Terminology: "While "East Indian" remains in use, the term "South Asian" is often chosen instead for academic and governmental purposes" in the United States.) Consequently, I have changed the infobox back. But I welcome further discussion and forging some sort of consensus. --EightYearBreak (talk) 15:49, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

"East Indian" is not a solution. It's archaic, and in a TT context often includes the implication that we are interlopers. If you're concerned about Easter eggs, it's best to un-pipe the links. Guettarda (talk) 18:02, 25 February 2020 (UTC)

Spanish

Pipenavis added the following section:

The Spanish in Trinidad and Tobago is spoken by a significant minority of the population, which has grown substantially thanks to the massive immigration of Venezuelans due to the crisis that the country has been suffering in the last decade. Other local languages ​​are english (official) and other unofficial languages ​​such as bhojpuri, arawak, french creole and others. In addition, Spanish in this Caribbean country has a special status, its study and teaching in educational centers is promoted, which allows it, above all, to have good relations with other South American countries, especially with nearby Venezuela. Spanish in Trinidad and Tobago is scheduled to be an official language in 2020.

References

The first source talks about a program that graduated 659 students in 2004. The second suggests that there are 4000 Spanish speakers, with an additional 66k with limited competency. That's not a "significant minority". While the influx of Venezuelan refugees (whose numbers are a source of much dispute) has made an impact on the use of Spanish in TT, this isn't sourced. The final bit discussed a government policy that was implemented with fanfare in 2004, but which hasn't achieved much. The only recent story I could find about the "Secretariat for the Implementation of Spanish" said, in 2017

The Ministry of Education has a secretariat for the implementation of Spanish, which is supposed to be in charge of promoting Spanish as a subject in schools. The focus, though, is on secondary schools. Even the curriculum supervisors designated for secondary schools also have the added burden of overseeing primary schools, so they have double work. And there is only one person in each educational district with responsibility for Spanish. [1]

One person per educational district is not a plan for bilingualism. You can't take a (hugely ambitious) promise made my a (now-deceased) politician 15 years ago and pretend it reflects modern reality. Guettarda (talk) 03:20, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Diction

The article currently states that "Tobago's Legislative Assembly voted to absolved itself" (and the island became a crown colony), which makes no sense. First, "absolve" means to declare to be free of guilt; it is possible that the writer meant "dissolve". Secondly, "absolved" is a past tense or past participle, which does not belong in an infinitive phrase ("to ____"). Sensitive to the warning at the top of the edit page that the article is written in Trinidadian English, I have not changed this usage, as I am not familiar with Trinidadian. If this is an error, it should be fixed; if it is Trinidadian usage, the meaning should be explained for non-Trinidadians. --Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 13:44, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

Dissolve. See History_of_Tobago#Union_with_Trinidad. Guettarda (talk) 18:13, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

recent changes

Could I get User:Arimaboss to come here and discuss the problems.--Moxy 🍁 05:27, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion for section on science and technology

Hi, just a suggestion, many country articles have sections or subsections for 'science and technology', this could be a section on this article as well. John Cummings (talk) 11:43, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I noticed this also, looks like it was deleted in 2020, here was the section. [2] It was removed totally rather than improved. A75 (talk) 16:17, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

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