Talk:Breeches role

Rule

The article states that stage plays don't have "breeches roles" in the sense of a male role expected to played by a woman. But what about something such as Peter Pan, where the playwright expected that Peter would be played by a young woman, and in every major stage production since (and the first movie), it's been done that way (e.g. Mary Martin, Sandy Duncan, Cathy Rigby)? In these cases its been less about voice than a combination of maturity to handle the job (requiring an adult or nearly so), with size/weight for the flying sequences and not looking too "manly" (requiring a female). I suspect there have been other "boy" stage roles that have been treated similarly. Tverbeek 18:32, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hmmm. Interesting. I was thinking more about old, classic plays when I wrote that, I guess. I did realize that my rule would probably turn out to be too simple to be literally true. You make a very good point, Tveerbeck. Maybe you could alter or add to the text? Peter Pan and panto are a bit beyond my ken. Hey, though, I have an intricate case I've been thinking about--too odd to really matter, I know, but still. In the spring of 1696, John Vanbrugh wrote The Relapse for a theatre company that was desperately short of actors (because nearly all the actors had walked out and set up a rival company). The glamourous young male hero (not boy) part was intended for Hildebrand Horden, the only young, handsome, competent male actor left. In May, Horden was killed in a duel, and at the première in November, Mrs. Kent played the part. Vanbrugh altered the script a bit between May and November, putting in some sex jokes that would work better, on a meta-level, if the handsome man was played by a pretty actress. So, it was desperate emergency casting, and the part has for 300 years since then always been played by a male. BUT the playwright did alter it to be at least a little suitable for a woman. A breeches role? Not a breeches role? The voting is now open. :-) --Bishonen | Talk 20:28, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Cool edit, Tverbeek, thanks!--Bishonen | Talk 22:38, 30 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Principal boy

Hi, 80.168.130.100! I've invisibled your "See also: Principal boy" (it's still there, just not displayed), because the principal boy thing is already mentioned and linked in the article. Maybe it would be more logically placed and easily noticed if it was higher up, though, along with Peter Pan? The article is coming on very nicely with several editors pitching in now, but could perhaps do with a bit of re-structuring. I wrote the original version, which was all about the 17th century, but I don't feel any too competent about later stuff. Also, anybody got anything about legit drama that's not specifically UK? Anybody got any references (to go with my two about Restoration plays)?--Bishonen | Talk 12:44, 31 Dec 2004 (UTC)

References for the operatic part?

I repeat myself from back in 2004, just above: anybody got any references? The references section is lopsided. The only two references that are there were added by me for my original stub about Restoration drama. It's a bit absurd to have those, and then no sources at all for the opera part. Come on, please, the people who contributed the opera stuff. If you've got an authoritative book or two that confirms what the article says, just put them into the references section. Don't worry about formatting entries right if that's not your thing, I can do it afterwards. Bishonen | ノート 10:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC).

women in/not in britches

in the article Ngaio Marsh external links, the link to image of NM as Hamlet is specified a "breeches role". Which way is it again? I'm confused. Manytexts (talk) 16:39, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I have to say, this article is pretty confusingly written and not awfully well referenced. It also confuses "breeches role" with en travesti, the portrayal of a character in an opera, play, or ballet by a performer of the opposite sex. . Generally speaking in theatre, a breeches role appears to refer to any role specifically written for a female actor where she dresses in men's clothing, either because the plot calls for her to disguise herself as a male for part of the time (e.g. Rosalind in As You Like It) or she actually plays a male character (e.g. Peter Pan). Hamlet was not written to be played by a female. If a female played Hamlet, she would be playing it en travesti, but the role itself is not a breeches role. In opera, "breeches role" is narrower than in theatre. It refers only to those specifically written for female singers playing male roles. It does not refer to roles where the singer spends part of the time disguised as a male. Thus Cherubino in The Marriage of Figaro, a male character specifically written to be sung by a soprano, is a breeches role, but Leonora in Fidelio is not because Leonora is a woman who only disguises herself as a male to free her husband from prison.

En travesti or travesti is a much broader term. Both men and women can play roles en travesti. Sometimes roles were specifically written to be played en travesti and in the case of females playing males, these would be "breeches" roles. In opera, male leads were often written to be sung by castrati (castrated male singers), but when castrati were not available they would be sung by females en travesti. After the castrati completely disappeared, their roles have been traditionally sung by females (usually mezzo-sopranos), becoming de facto breeches roles, e.g. Rinaldo. But just to make things more complicated, the rise of the male counter-tenor voice in the late 20th century has meant that those old castrato roles are now increasingly sung by males again. Voceditenore (talk) 18:17, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for going to trouble to clear that up. It's a big help and makes a good outline for improving the article with some good refs. Manytexts (talk) 10:39, 8 May 2011 (UTC)

"latter"?

The last sentence in the second paragraph is: "The most frequently performed breeches roles are Cherubino (The Marriage of Figaro), Octavian (Der Rosenkavalier), Hansel (Hansel und Gretel) and Orpheus (Orpheus and Euridice), though the latter was originally written for a male singer, ... "
In this context, "latter" means the second of two (and only two) items — but here there are four (Cherubino, Octavian, Hansel and Orpheus); if "latter" is meant to refer to Orpheus, the clause should be amended to " ... though the last was originally written for a male singer, ... "
Prisoner of Zenda (talk) 06:59, 19 April 2022 (UTC)